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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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Mixed feeling here.

Love pops, i feel this was missing in the not-predecessor EU4.

However some smart prople figured out a start date in the 1300s, which I do not like. I find the time frame of EU4 always really cool, i feel the middle ages dont fit here. There is a reason historians make a cut some time between 1450 and 1500 and call it a different age. I have never liked these games where you start in the stone age and fly space ships in the end, progressing from 135x to 182x would be a weaker form of this :D
Sadly Paradox fans are too blinded by their medieval LARP fantasies to realise how unfun an EU game starting in the 1300s would be. If only they would realise Crusader Kings was their dream game all along
 
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How does this work when a tiny number of colonists are ruling over 5 or more native tribes?
I think this will really depend on whether colonial populations are calculated separately from the metropole's population. For example, while the number of Spaniards in the American colonies was a small portion of the total colonial population if you include the Spanish population that lived in Spain then they're certainly numerous enough to be within the top 5 largest cultural groups.
 
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There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.
Seeing how the topic of seemingly incorrect population numbers has already been brought up quite a few times, could you elaborate a bit on how population numbers at the start of the game are decided? Will they be largely based on historical sources/estimates where available, or are game balance being given more weight? I would expect a mix, and personally I would prefer numbers being be somewhat balanced around trying to achieve interesting gameplay while at the same time ensuring historical powers can achieve somewhat historical results (with military losses ideally having Vic 2 style impact on pops).

Historical sources will obviously be lacking a lot of areas, while other areas might have very rough, or possibly even fairly accurate estimates. Collecting these data would obviously be a huge job for a fairly limited gain from a gameplay point of view, but I would also expect anyone trying to find breakdowns of which cultures/religions/whatever was present at a local level for large parts of the world would also come across a lot of population estimates.

Also, I just noticed that partial quotes from dev diaries can be used if I turn on "Show only dev responses". Is that some new wizardry, or has it always been there, just well hidden?
 
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Very exciting stuff! I know it's still quite early, but is there a ballpark figure on how much lighter of a performance impact pops will be relative to Vic3, since there won't be the same degree of added complexity from buildings? I'm mainly thinking in terms of multiplicative, exponential, or a more modest difference.
 
Having 2 start dates like in every other title (except Stellaris and Victoria 3 for now) might please everyone.

A 1356 start and a 1453 start. The first one opens up new options and possibilities throughout the world. The second one avoids the gaminess of Byzantium doing a comeback while ensuring that the major powers are ready to enter the early modern period in a way that would resemble history.
 
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Mixed feeling here.

Love pops, i feel this was missing in the not-predecessor EU4.

However some smart prople figured out a start date in the 1300s, which I do not like. I find the time frame of EU4 always really cool, i feel the middle ages dont fit here. There is a reason historians make a cut some time between 1450 and 1500 and call it a different age. I have never liked these games where you start in the stone age and fly space ships in the end, progressing from 135x to 182x would be a weaker form of this :D

I somewhat share that feeling, but hope there's at least the possibility to have a bookmark more in the 1400's (like the classic 1444 from EU4).
Nothing against 1300's (MEIOU is amazing). My problem with starting too early, is that in most of my playthroughs in EU4 (almost 1000 hours) I get a bit tired by the 1600's (because AI sometimes goes into hard ahistorical craziness), so I hardly ever reach late game mechanics.

In another topic, famous for uniting the community in consensus, will there be any mission trees/focuses? I personally love them, specially with the option of AI historical focus.
 
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Sadly Paradox fans are too blinded by their medieval LARP fantasies to realise how unfun an EU game starting in the 1300s would be. If only they would realise Crusader Kings was their dream game all along
Have you ever tried the MEIOU and Taxes mod for EU4? Or the 1356 mod? Both start in 1356 and it doesn't feel out of place for the mechanics.

As for what defines "medieval", I've seen some arguments that Medieval Europe was a bit """overpopulated""" and "stagnant" (at least socio-economically) with feudalism before the black death. A number of historians say that one of the consequences of the black death in around the mid 1300s is an increase in social mobility, which one could argue played a role in the growing influence of cities and urban centres. The black death population losses and disruption made labour more valuable and thus increased social mobility and urbanisation. This is sometimes viewd as inadvertently causing an increase in commercial pursuits by non-feudal classes, like seeking new innovative trade opportunities, which could be seen as a catalyst for much of the Age of ""Discovery"".

At least in my own subjective view I regard post black-death Europe as the beginning of the end of what can be historically regarded as "medieval times" and the very first movement towards the "early-modern" era.

All these points are subjective and just macro analysis but you see it's not a totally alien concept for EUV to start in the mid 1300s, at least thematically it fits in my opinion.
 
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Only the 5 biggest cultures are shown.
What about a situation where let's say in a colonial location there are 2 local cultures and 3 immigrant cultures which all 5 all majority, but most of the nobles are of the ruling culture but they are minority. They are important but they will not be seen?
 
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really hope theres more opportunities paths for minority cultures/countries (eg scotland or ireland) that are within historically powerful/popular to play countries to be interesting late into the game, like for the example of ireland or scotland they wouldnt form great britain
 
Hashmap per pop wouldn't have solved the problem of pops contemplating job satisfaction per building. It would have reduced visual clutter for the player, in exchange for the player having to work harder to understand which pops where are starving.
Extraneous to the topic.
But yes it can, you can just iterate over all the buildings included in the hashmap to do any calculations/effects you want and let's say you want a portion of that pop removed, you can deduct it from the value matching that key (building) and add it to another pop sharing same characteristics etc, but this is assuming we're talking C++, not modding language.
 
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Regarding the culture picture:

1) It might be a state since it is missing other cultures that were present in the whole of the country such as Serbians.

2) It has to be before the Turkish invasion of the Balkans or else there would be Turks present in the states that would have Bulgarians in the such as Thrace, Moesia, or Dobruja (1361-1389).
 
really hope theres more opportunities paths for minority cultures/countries (eg scotland or ireland) that are within historically powerful/popular to play countries to be interesting late into the game, like for the example of ireland or scotland they wouldnt form great britain
Scottish dominated British isles should instead form "Alba Mhór" and colonies should have Scots-Gael names like "Alba Nuadh" or "Ghalldachd".
 
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98% peasants? That's pretty high, i don't see any craftsmen there. Even very agrarian societies of that time didn't have so much peasants.
I think anything like a "craftsman/artisan" would be defined as a burgher in the case of a city dweller or a peasant if they're rural. It's their class, not their actual "occupation" I think. One makes farm tools, the other makes fine tables for the gentry.
 
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Have you ever tried the MEIOU and Taxes mod for EU4? Or the 1356 mod? Both start in 1356 and it doesn't feel out of place for the mechanics.

As for what defines "medieval", I've seen some arguments that Medieval Europe was a bit """overpopulated""" and "stagnant" (at least socio-economically) with feudalism before the black death. A number of historians say that one of the consequences of the black death in around the mid 1300s is an increase in social mobility, which one could argue played a role in the growing influence of cities and urban centres. The black death population losses and disruption made labour more valuable and thus increased social mobility and urbanisation. This is sometimes viewd as inadvertently causing an increase in commercial pursuits by non-feudal classes, like seeking new innovative trade opportunities, which could be seen as a catalyst for much of the Age of ""Discovery"".

At least in my own subjective view I regard post black-death Europe as the beginning of the end of what can be historically regarded as "medieval times" and the very first movement towards the "early-modern" era.

All these points are subjective and just macro analysis but you see it's not a totally alien concept for EUV to start in the mid 1300s, at least thematically it fits in my opinion.
I agree with the socio-poltical analysis here. However the middle ages are separated not only by historians but also by Paradox (until now i guess) from the early modern period for a reason. Much of what we interact with as players in these games was vastly different between these two ages and the more of the late middle ages gets shoehorned into a game supposedly about colonialism the more abstract and inaccurate the simulation has to become (which as far as i can tell is very important to the devs).
Not only accurate simulation without a game made specifically for the middle ages would be a problem but also the fact that we would have to wait well over 100 and up to 150 years until we reach the age of discovery and colonialism, and judging by the Infos we have so far seems to be a major focus of the game.
 
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