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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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As technological advances mentioned in dairy, in my mind, if the development of tech can be influenced by neighbors and countries trading with, it will be more reality-simulating. For example, in war time a country can receive more tech spread in military from the enemies, just like the spread of guns during sengoku or the lasting war between Chinese Song dynasty and jurchens' Jing dynasty, meanwhile, in peaceful time, so do the techs in commerce and administration
 
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Pops. That is not good.
 
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One thing I do hope for is that populations get wiped be it through war, disease, or other disasters. It shouldn't be the case that whatever the equivalent for development in this game goes up and only up as it did in eu4.
 
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Mixed feeling here.

Love pops, i feel this was missing in the not-predecessor EU4.

However some smart people figured out a start date in the 1300s, which I do not like. I find the time frame of EU4 always really cool, i feel the middle ages dont fit here. There is a reason historians make a cut some time between 1450 and 1500 and call it a different age. I have never liked these games where you start in the stone age and fly space ships in the end, progressing from 135x to 182x would be a weaker form of this :D
 
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I'd like to suggest maybe having new classes of pops come into existence as the game goes on? Depending on the specific time period, argument to be made of there being different distinctions of peasants and laborers.
 
@Johan

How will Janissaries and Cossacks be represented with the 5 social classes? As an occupation?
I'd assume Janissaries are slaves that get additional priviliges due to cultural mechanics and Cossacks could kinda be in several different social classes.

I'm kinda curious how tribal/nomads will be handled, I guess Cossacks would fit a similar vein even if they aren't really a tribal community but rather started as just bands of random misfits.

I hope these people won't be delegated to some DLC and get incorporated into the base game. A "freeman" pop for non-feudal places seems kinda necessary
 
Looks great. I’m glad population is more realistic but I really want to be able to starve out enemies through blockade or just burning their farms. Will that be possible? If not at release then perhaps in the future.
 
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So theres something i dont understand about this.

The OP mentions that pops in vic 2 didnt cause much performance impact (although i think it did in vic 3 at release, not sure if that was fixed). And Stellaris is notorious for being extremely laggy partly due to pops. So what is so different about the pops in Stellaris that it causes lag but it wont cause lag in this game, where you have dozens of different cultures and religions (leading to 100+ different combinations), in hundreds of provinces, with constant cultural and religious assimilation? Because that sounds like a lot more things the game has to keep track of compared to Stellaris, where an empire usually has less than half a dozen species on maybe two dozen planets max, but is notorious for causing lag.
Pop mobility is the biggest thing in my mind. Both Stellaris and Vic3 pops constantly think about "do I change my job?" A Stellaris pop can slow-teleport to any colonised planet within their empire or some other tag that signed a migration treaty. So they need to think about this all the time, evaluating all the possible places to migrate to. I hope they only consider swapping jobs within the same planet when there's a change to job availabilities (e.g. new building finishes construction or player restricts some jobs). Even when it's job hopping within the same planet, if there are several candidate pops who could take the job, they need to think which one will get it. Oh and while internal politics isn't exactly a focal point of Stellaris, each pop also has ideological leanings which contribute to internal faction strengths.

Vic3 pops also think about their wages and expenses when considering job hopping. Oh and updates from monthly population growth: Stellaris pops only worry about growth when the planet needs to pick a new pop to slow-spawn. With pops fragmenting as states get more diversity in building types, the number of pops (data entities that need to be processed) increases as time goes on. And unlike CK3, each pop is a lot of people at once so you can't have a plague kill them off. Thus the meta of genociding to protect game performance: "nothing personal Planet Citizens, but our empire needs you dead so we can age at a normal rate".

I hope that this game chose a different approach to pops than V3, for the sake of performance. Using Hashmaps to represent diversity inside a pop is probably better than creating too many singular pops to the point that the player can't possibly keep track. (for example, they could've had employment buildings as a hashmap inside a pop that shares same status, culture, religion, location etc rather than creating a pop for every building).

And so far it does seem from the screenshot, that the population overview is more clear and condensed than victoria 3 (which did a bit too much of it to the point it hurt performance in my opinion)
Hashmap per pop wouldn't have solved the problem of pops contemplating job satisfaction per building. It would have reduced visual clutter for the player, in exchange for the player having to work harder to understand which pops where are starving.

I'm curious what the interactions with the pops and between pop will be. For example, in the medieval era the clergy and artisans were actually a source of scientific advancement and innovation. Would we be able to promote these two in some way to drive technological/ cultural advances? Would this upset another subset, like the nobility leading to rebellion or instability? Would we be able to enable policies to increase a pop like artisans and would this upset other pops?

It would be cool to also see the factions within each population. For example, if there is a split in the nobility we can grant more land/privileges to nobility that favors the player. Or spend money and resources on buildings and funding guilds or artisans for our nation. There are so many possibilities here!
This is the core of what I want to see with these lightweight pops. Will events care that pops of two antagonistic cultures are residing in the same location (and whether they share a religion promoting inter-cultural harmony)? That the urban pops lording over surrounding rural pops are of an alien culture and religion?

I'm also curious what granularity there will be for army units. EU4 has a magic global pool of manpower, letting you recruit 100k soldiers from one province (over many many years). With pops and army units walking around the map, I form initial expectations that you have to spread recruitment around your empire: i.e. the player can deplete a province/region of local manpower. Meaning pops will track 2 numbers: total population and recruitable population (not exactly a proper age pyramid). From this, I can extend my expectation that individual regiments could (if performance permits) track what cultures/religions they originated from. This leads to army cohesion questions ("I don't want to stand in formation with Those People!"), disease ("what do you mean it's filthy to do This?") and what happens if regiments are disbanded far from their recruited origins. Do they try to fit in with the locals or teleport back 'home' (however that's determined)?

On a tangent, will the classification of locations as "rural or urban" be dynamic based on pops? If a city somehow gets sacked, plagued and starved to the point there's barely more pops than surrounding rural areas, will that location become 'rural'? If a mass of pops decide (by player direction or otherwise) to all settle in one rural location, will the swell in pops flip it into 'urban'?


Perhaps it's much too early to talk about these things, but these are the sorts of questions I'd like to see addressed in future Tinto Talks.
 
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@Johan
I have watched one pop with A social class, A culture, A religion, An amount and a Satisfaction Value.

From my view, When talking about satisfaction, there should have needs be met, so there should be production, along with people work in different productivities, so there should be Occupations, or job, otherwise I could not figure out how needs are met.

However, Considering the IR way, that includes different pops of social classes generates different resources, consummating resources like food, influenced by happiness value of pops. that IR system is a boarding-game-like one, and look similarly to that one displayed today, that IR-like pop system seems to be hard to excite me, if there is no occupation system or production system (capitalism ones), at least much more social classes can be vital to keep this new game 'simulated'.