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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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a cultural minority thats more than a certain % of the pops in that location.
I hope the system in place to determine how big and apparent those stripes are based on pop distributions is a little more intuitive and practical than that implemented in Vic2, but as far as i can tell from the screenshots it already is, so i'm not complaining.
 
I want every little German HRE s*ithole with a population of less than 5 people represented or else i'm not buying.

Dealing with 300 German princes, barons and wannabe-dukes is my lifeblood.
 
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I just bought and started playing Imperator Rome yesterday (because of all the buzz from some of the eu4 youtubers) and thought to myself how familiar it felt to playing Eu4 in many ways and that EU5 could definitely resemble it in many ways. I'm really loving the game (IR, but EU as well, of course) and am super stoked about this game coming out, whether it's EU5 or something else. Can't wait.

(btw, IR is such a great game, I don't know what it was like before last years patch, I know it received a lot of negativity, but in it's current form it's wonderful. I hope more people can discover it and enjoy it as I am).
 
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How so? In matters of raising an army Portugal was well whitin the European average of quantity until the early modern age.
Why would that be? Small nations like Portugal and the Netherlands succeeded in real life too. Making the simulation more realistic through the addition of pop systems does in no way have to mean these countries would become weaker.
I didn't say Portugal was weak. I said if they design gameplay fully around population size, then smaller nations could become unfun to play. As the advantage of abstraction is that flexibility. Now I am not picking a side here. And I do believe population will serve mostly as a better way to represent "development" like it was in previous games, as a way to determine which lands are valuable and good to tax.
 
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If the game is indeed going to start deep in the Medieval era, then we need for it to end earlier. With most players not making it to 1500s, there's not much point in XVII or XVIII century half-finished features.
 
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If the starting year of eu5 is earlier than 1368,could you let Ming rule its territory in history?You know,Ming is really powerful in the 14th century and the first half of 15th century.Yuanzhang and Di are outstanding leaders during that period.
 
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Tana Li, in Nguyen Cochinchina: Southern Vietnam in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries, estimates the population of Dai Viet in 1400 to be 1,600,000.
According to Minh Su, after occupying Dai Viet, statistics in 1408 showed that Dai Viet's population was about more than 4 million people, possibly higher because many people fled. So in the Tran Dynasty around 1350, there could not have been a population of more than 1 million people
 
I didn't say Portugal was weak. I said if they design gameplay fully around population size, then smaller nations could become unfun to play. As the advantage of abstraction is that flexibility. Now I am not picking a side here. And I do believe population will serve mostly as a better way to represent "development" like it was in previous games, as a way to determine which lands are valuable and good to tax.
You are looking at pops in a vaccum tho. A country with 10 million people wont raise 10 million soldiers. only a very small percentage of that. You need to take into account equiment, food, transport etc.
 
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There are four different types of pops in the game.
  • Citizens - They provide research and commerce income. These represent the patricians in Rome, and nobility in monarchies
  • Freemen - They provide manpower. The plebs of Rome is included in this group.
  • Tribesmen - These provide a tiny amount of manpower and tax income. These are the barbarians or uncivilized parts of your areas.
  • Slaves - These provide tax income
Comparing this pop social class setting to the pop types of IR, the Project Caesar led to a simulation to the Early Modern period, not one boarding game.
Comparing to MT3.0, which has nobles, clergy, burghers,, nomads, tribesmen, residents and peasants, we human live in a urbanizing world from 14th century, while I have not seen the existence of residents, I think it not so easy for peasants to move into a city and make a living by urban work if lacking enough knowledge, so how about adding the residents to this game, or at least change the name of "peasants" into something else?

Re-considering the migration of pop, that cause Vicky3 slow down rapidly, there should be mechanics to avoid inflation of number of pop, and cut down the dimensions of pops as little as possible.
 
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Comparing this pop social class setting to the pop types of IR, the Project Caesar led to a simulation to the Early Modern period, not one boarding game.
Comparing to MT3.0, which has nobles, clergy, burghers,, nomads, tribesmen, residents and peasants, we human live in a urbanizing world from 14th century, while I have not seen the existence of residents, I think it not so easy for peasants to move into a city and make a living by urban work if lacking enough knowledge, so how about adding the residents to this game, or at least change the name of "peasants" into something else?

Re-considering the migration of pop, that cause Vicky3 slow down rapidly, there should be mechanics to avoid inflation of number of pop, and cut down the dimensions of pops as little as possible.
 
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the reason I have friends who play EU4 is because it's a board game that's just too complex to be in person.
If it wasn't a board game in videogame clothing I wouldn't have nearly as many people willing to try it

I suspect you're part of a pretty tiny minority.
 
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