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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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I'm just wondering how well simulated a game in that era can be if it doesnt include feudalism mechanics like CK does. The other issue of being over 100 years away from one of the main gameplay aspects that is colonization also confuses me. 1415 would have been a nice middle ground with an interesting scenario to go along with it. I'm just wondering what upsides starting before the 1390s (or even 1350 how some people are suggesting) could have that could possibly outweigh the negatives.
Upside is Greater Serbia still exists.

But in all seriousness I genuinely like 1356 start date in mods like MEIOU because there's a lot more interesting choices IMHO like Pagan Lithuania, non-dominant Ottomans that actually frees up Balkans, still strong hordes, Jalayirrids in Iraq, possibility of playing as Timur etc and overall more time to play with my pops in this scenario.
 
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Otherwise it will be difficult to balance nations like Portugal.
Why would that be? Small nations like Portugal and the Netherlands succeeded in real life too. Making the simulation more realistic through the addition of pop systems does in no way have to mean these countries would become weaker.
 
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The start date is 1369-70.

Yunnan is independent and Ming just crushed the Red Turban Rebellion.
The Delhi Sultanate is losing hold in India.
The Ilkhanate is fragmented and Timur was just crowned.
The Khmer Empire is weak but Ayutthaya didn't rise yet.
 
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For peasants by the end of the game, even 70% will be hard.
I assume that literacy might be easier to achieve for small playing tall nations as an attempt to help balance them out for larger nations? Also- can one cheat the literacy score by having certain pops (such as slaves) not count?
 
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Why would that be? Small nations like Portugal and the Netherlands succeeded in real life too. Making the simulation more realistic through the addition of pop systems does in no way have to mean these countries would become weaker.
And hopefully this time around we can built feitorias instead of the free real estate of eu iv.
 
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So theres something i dont understand about this.

The OP mentions that pops in vic 2 didnt cause much performance impact (although i think it did in vic 3 at release, not sure if that was fixed). And Stellaris is notorious for being extremely laggy partly due to pops. So what is so different about the pops in Stellaris that it causes lag but it wont cause lag in this game, where you have dozens of different cultures and religions (leading to 100+ different combinations), in hundreds of provinces, with constant cultural and religious assimilation? Because that sounds like a lot more things the game has to keep track of compared to Stellaris, where an empire usually has less than half a dozen species on maybe two dozen planets max, but is notorious for causing lag.

I got no clue about the code in either v3 or stellaris, nor about their performance costs of pops.

I coded the pop systems in v1, v2, eu:rome and imperator before this, and I know how those work.
 
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You can have technological development (faster for European countries, slower in Asia). And you can actually have mechanics that favour smaller countries. Take political capital, a mana-like mechanic that actually exists in the real world. Small countries can arguably spend less of that on internal management and more rapidly take radical decisions.
There still needs to be some way for players in other parts of the world to keep pace with european powers, even if european powers get an inbuilt advantage.

I think the institution system did a good job at this, and I cannot wait to see how the equivalent system is implemented here.
 
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I assume that literacy might be easier to achieve for small playing tall nations as an attempt to help balance them out for larger nations? Also- can one cheat the literacy score by having certain pops (such as slaves) not count?

slaves dont count, sorry.
 
There are few things I need in life, but please, please, I'm begging you, please tell you can have multiple cultures be in the same culture group and be of different colours that can be manually set for each one, like in CK2 for example.
pretty sure yes.
 
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Please integrate navies and trade mechanics from the beginning.

Trade should be automated, with automatic spawning of merchant navies.
These attract piracy/privateers, which leads to losses in trade.

Player Agency in trade only with tariffs, "acts" / laws (British navigation act, Spanish Casa de Contratación, mercantilism, etc.).
Player Agency in piracy with letter of marque - mechanic.
Player Agency against piracy with acts (American anti-piracy act) , building warships for patrols.

With actual navy combat, avoid or make death stack combat impossible.

- Your games are awesome!
 
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around 1340-1350, the Ming Dynasty had not yet conquered Yunnan. In 1356 Ming captured Nanjing
The title of prince of Liang (梁王) was revived a fourth time under the Yuan dynasty as a hereditary appanage for one of the sons of Kublai Khan. The Princes of Liang served as the Yuan viceroys of Yunnan. By far the most famous was Basalawarmi (d. 1382), who continued his family's fight against the Ming long after the fall of Khanbalik in 1368.
 
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