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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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This is amazing, I've always thought that Eu4 suffered from a lack of representation of the actual population of the earth at that time. Leading to issues like armies being way to big for the time period, North America being colonized too quickly, no representation of minority cultures and religions, etc. This is a really good step for the game to go in and was one of the big things I thought Eu5 would have to have to sell me on it over all the content Eu4 has currently.

I also hope you guys look into representing supply lines for armies in some way, one of the most unfun parts of Eu4 wars is dealing with the AI walking around the world in areas where they should realistically have no supply. This is most noticeable on Russia but its apparent in other areas like with colonization or overseas wars in general. By the late game colonial wars involve armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands where as in real life during the American revolution the British were only able to field around 50k men in America at that time.
I agree that supply should be a thing, but not "supply lines" as detailed in a comment in the previous dd (edit: TT). The commenter explained very well that supply lines aren't really a thing at the time, and armies would essentially pillage the regions they were in. If there is nothing to pillage (ie russia), then there should be supply issues, but maintaining a caravan from your territories isnt fun, and apparently not realistic!
 
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Where are you seeing different Icons for culture? I am seeing different icons for religion and 'class'.
I'm 90% sure the harp in the middle of the graph is supposed to represent Greek culture.
I am glad there aren't 3d images for pops, they took up too much real estate for what they offered.
Vic3 did a terrible job at implementing such a potentially cool concept.
 
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POPs in EU5! The madmen time-wizards of the forum were right all along!
 
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There are few things I need in life, but please, please, I'm begging you, please tell you can have multiple cultures be in the same culture group and be of different colours that can be manually set for each one, like in CK2 for example.
 
Good lord who art in heaven!
EU5 has a population system with inspiration from Imperator and the Victoria series!
This is everything that i have ever wanted!
 
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Was it as good for you as it was for me, @Lord Lambert ?

God, I need a cigarette after that dev diary and I don't even smoke!
 
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Yeah, this is EU5.

Honestly, I'm not in love with the UI so far, especially from the first screenshot. Looks like a website.

Definitely like the addition of pops/people, especially since it looks like that means no "everyone in province X is culture X." Only thing I'd add is a merchant class.

Will cultures be dynamic, or static (I.E., is culture conversion an automatic process?) And are there any plans for custom cultures (a la CK3)?

Because that sounds like a lot more things the game has to keep track of compared to Stellaris, where an empire usually has less than half a dozen species on maybe two dozen planets max, but is notorious for causing lag.
If Project Caesar includes a new game engine, that's why. Clausewitz is more than a decade old, and is single-core. Caesar would be multi-core. If Project Caesar is just EU5, though, it's probably because they aren't Stellaris pops. They seem to be far more like Vic3's pops, though fewer in number. Since Vic3 runs (fairly) well even in the mid game (though lower-end computers start to struggle past 1890ish), it's highly likely that even if it's the exact same system, it'll perform just fine.
 
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My two cents would be that's a "Nomadic" social class wouldn't be out of place.
Like, if your government is somewhat nomadic-focused (NA Natives or Steppe Hordes), you could influence where those people migrate and gain/keep control solely over provinces where your nomadic pops currently are. This could allow for an Imperator-style granularity for migratory nations.
 
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Will war cause loss of population? The fact that development only ever goes up is one of the problems of EU4.
 
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I'm 90% sure the harp in the middle of the graph is supposed to represent Greek culture.

Vic3 did a terrible job at implementing such a potentially cool concept.

If you look at the pop list image there is a title row (is it wrong that it bugs me that it isn't above the columns correctly). In there you see the 'pin' for location, a segmented triangle for class, the harp for culture, the sun for religion, two people in profile for quantity, and theatre masks for satisfaction. The first four being the attributes of a People. The last two being two of the known values of a People.

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