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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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I'd like to ask how moddable these pops are. I can see each group has a culture, religion, class, and happiness. Would it be possible, if some of us got some crazy ideas, to add more traits? Like political party affiliation for example.
 
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I saw the map, All I see is Yuan and what would be Yunnan, which is probably a vassal, Ming existing does not work with India borders
Red Turban Rebels, which form Ming.

Also Khmer borders prove it must be post-1357
 
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Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

Big PDX L
the reason I have friends who play EU4 is because it's a board game that's just too complex to be in person.
If it wasn't a board game in videogame clothing I wouldn't have nearly as many people willing to try it
 
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It is definitely very interesting. I wonder how EU5 will be balanced without the development "crutch". Will China dominate everyone?

You can have technological development (faster for European countries, slower in Asia). And you can actually have mechanics that favour smaller countries. Take political capital, a mana-like mechanic that actually exists in the real world. Small countries can arguably spend less of that on internal management and more rapidly take radical decisions.
 
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A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
There must be some way to prevent having 1 billion people in a single location? Even for like 1 million people?

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.
So soldier's manpower is taken from population and is not own separate pool like it is currently with EU4? And if you would have 0 population, you also would have 0 soldier's manpower. As in there not being some base value that you start with?

Also with the different types of populations, does that mean with each you can recruit certain type of unit?

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.
Will population growth be impacted by food sortage (or something similar) and diseases, and more, as well?
 
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Well, didn't expect that that early, but hey! this likely means there's more to talk about than I anticipated overall!

Banner: So we can tell, at a glance, the population of a given country. Guess I'll forget my previous guess of not being omniscient, and already, my fear of having a very powerful ledger like center of information are rising. I can understand the reasoning, of course, as obfuscating data isn't necessarily easy or fair. Yet.. a part of me still believe that it can lead to too high level of optimisation. Oh well...

Second map: Culture, with places where it stands dominant and places it is likely second as lines. I do like that, but I hope we can get location border at closer zoom level, if you give information, I'd like it at least easily readable. Speaking of, background color of the country on the first map too? From the wildly varying size, it is possible to guess that there's less of that "We try to keep cultures more balanced by grouping together the smaller ones", and the colors don't seem to indicate the presence of culture groups this time

Culture / Religion / Social: The one that immediately brings questions is the Social group, especially how those are used for several fringe cases. In particular, isolated natives, nomads, urban and to a certain extant nobility. The first two are not exactly peasants, due mostly to a lack of lands to work, urban population also seems to not fall under that umbrella. I'd rename the category "Commoner" to be more encompassing, without changing the represented population. For the last one, we also face the situation where there is no "nobility", but something equivalent taking their place. "Ruling class" might be more generic here. However, this is semantic, and the idea stays also the same. We can expect localisation to modify those strings accordingly further down, for the purpose of immersion

Slavery: So they are counted separatedly. No idea how this will be counted, right now and if it includes several forms of it. Time will tell!

The view also shows that contentement / unrest is by... errr... "pops' so we know it won't be a general unrest value. The sorting menu having one less column than the information (missing religion, apparently) is bound to evolve, but also seems to have quite a lot of space between lines. I'm a fan of denser info myself, but again, that's personal preference

- Further information: Literacy is a thing and impacts science. I have never been fond of saying that knowing how to read means more science points as it dissociate advancements from their needs (Like, having an awesome naval technology because that's part of the progression, without ever seeing a coast in your entire existence), and instead always subscibed to the theory that literacy is a consequence of invention and the general ability to maintain its existence. Having it impacts the societal side of things, however, is much more logical and I'm all for it being then engine of societal reforms

Cultural relation is a thing. While we know not how it is shaped, it doesn't mention culture groups, as mentioned prior already, so we can expect some cultures to be friendly or rival in a more dynamic manner, possibly kickstarting nationalism when culture and country starts being one. Accepted cultures seems to still be around

"Specific scripted circumstances" is slighly more complex than merly saying "Modifiers", especially the "Specific" part. We'll see what is the reason behind this later I assume

Twso observations still. One, satisfaction doesn't seem to be class based, in the Tarragone screenshot. Either all group are equally satisfied, or the factor is non existant, at least at that level. The second observation is that it strongly hint at a reconquista period, but that's only another period hint among many by now.

Indirect only: This is one of those comment that bears a lot of weight. It basically means "No you cannot take people and ship them somewhere else at will" which is good. Also if stuffs like missionaries are here, they won't directly convert people as you see fit, and there's likely no big button for culture conversion. Outside factors such as drafting / massacre / epidemics are fair game as you do not tell explicitely "I only want the wrong religion / culture people in that army about to embark at sea for 50 years of attrition to magically make discontent disappear"

Performance: Unsurprising that it can likely run very well, but we'll see how it goes as DLC get added and have an exponential impact on the processing cost

Last screenshots: Well, this confirm one thing: We're before 1453. Also... A dot separator for millions, a comma for raw number and none for thousand. That's a detail, of course, but that looks inconsistent. We also see that there's a lot more religions this time around. Bogomilism is new, for instance
 
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Red Turban Rebels, which form Ming.

Also Khmer borders prove it must be post-1357
I think it has to be 1356. I wouldn't even be surprised if the devs did the smart and efficient thing and pulled population data from MEIOU and Taxes mod for EU4 which starts in 1356.
 
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I looked this up and it was interesting - thanks!
although the european billion isnt a thing anymore so 10^9 it is
Actually most European countries still use the long scale. The only western European countries that use the short scale are the UK, Ireland, and Malta. But since the short scale is universally used by English speakers, and Johan was typing in English, it's safe to assume that billion means 10^9 and not 10^12.
 
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2. Like the fact that each culture has their own icon. I'm not entirely sure about the religion icons tho, especially the one for Orthodoxy, hope it's just a placeholder.
Where are you seeing different Icons for culture? I am seeing different icons for religion and 'class'.

3. Seems like we won't be getting 3D portraits for pops which is a bit of a shame. Of course, they were implemented terribly in Victoria 3, but I really liked the concept of being able to look at what the average person in your country looks like.
I am glad there aren't 3d images for pops, they took up too much real estate for what they offered.
 
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So theres something i dont understand about this.

The OP mentions that pops in vic 2 didnt cause much performance impact (although i think it did in vic 3 at release, not sure if that was fixed). And Stellaris is notorious for being extremely laggy partly due to pops. So what is so different about the pops in Stellaris that it causes lag but it wont cause lag in this game, where you have dozens of different cultures and religions (leading to 100+ different combinations), in hundreds of provinces, with constant cultural and religious assimilation? Because that sounds like a lot more things the game has to keep track of compared to Stellaris, where an empire usually has less than half a dozen species on maybe two dozen planets max, but is notorious for causing lag.