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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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yeah, probably something for our games in 10+ years or so..
EU6 with population pyramids in 2036 confirmed.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

Sniff… its beautiful!
 
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1356-1756 could be a good time frame which opens up a new slot for March of the Eagles 2 which would be from the end of the Seven Years War in 1756 to 1836.
 
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1. Really like the look of the UI so far.
2. Like the fact that each culture has their own icon. I'm not entirely sure about the religion icons tho, especially the one for Orthodoxy, hope it's just a placeholder.
3. Seems like we won't be getting 3D portraits for pops which is a bit of a shame. Of course, they were implemented terribly in Victoria 3, but I really liked the concept of being able to look at what the average person in your country looks like.
 
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I'm placing my bets on 1385 start date.

It does seem like we are narrowing in, most of the posts in this thread speculating on the date have it between 1354 and 1400 now.

I guess we need to think of all the big events in that time frame and what could be the jumping off point for our mystery game that may not be EU5.
 
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The map at the top implies a start date of late 1300s, it seems like a political map, ( it does not match up to the cultural map we are shown), and the delhii sultanate still controls Jaunpur, so it is before 1394
View attachment 1094462
Fits with a (generous) estimate of Ming's population around 1400.
This will be huge for the game. China's Treasure Fleet voyages were stopped in 1424 due to an emperor's personal opinion. Joan of Arc wouldn't be born until 1412, and the Timurid Empire was dominant over the Ottomans.
I imagine we'd see more than a small amount of divergence just from that alone.
 
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Bar the international market and the politics, this feels very Vic2 to me, maybe even borderline "why not play that instead?". Obviously people weren't invented in 1836 (after being lost when Rome was sacked by Germanic characters), but for me that was what Vic2 was all about, and wanting to try something different was, in turn, what made me seek out the other PDX franchises. It's a system I've never missed in the other games, even if it's really cool in Vic2.

Still, it's far too early to say anything for sure, and I do look forward to hearing how all this will tie in to the rest of the game in a meaningful way that sets it apart from other similar implementations.

That said, regardless of how the game turns out I already love the map. It looked a bit chunky when you zoomed in on Stockholm, but zoomed out it has so much detail and "life" with all the intricate coastlines and impassable areas.
 
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I am guessing 1368ish. Many inteersting events happening around here.
1368: Yuan falls, Ming takes over
1369: Trastamara become kings of Spain
The second phase of the hundred years war begins
Ottomans invade Bulgaria
1370: Timur establishes his empire
my thoughts as well. between 1368 and 1380.
 
I am also curious how colonial pops will be handled. Will they remain their original culture? Or will they assimilate into a new colonial culture? And if so who assimilates to what culture and how is divided regionally if at all?

We will talk more about how these things work in the future
 
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It is missing the Genoese (or North Italian) population unless it was too small to include. Also there wasn’t more than 150,000 people or so in the city by the time it fell.

Only the 5 biggest cultures are shown.
 
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It is definitely very interesting. I wonder how EU5 will be balanced without the development "crutch". Will China dominate everyone?
 
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Not exactly true - a lot of polish cities were German-speaking at the beginning of the game, but not at the end of EU4 timeline.
I was referencing a post that mentioned assimilation of Germans in the 19/20th century, that is to say after the eu4 timeline
 
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Will cultures follow the Imperator model of giving cultural privileges & cultural acceptance determining what classes pops can be part of?

The idea was interesting, but in Imperator you were incentivized to just take the early stability hit and assimilate all other cultures into your blob, even as the Hellenistic kingdoms. Would make even less for Austria or the Ottomans to just become the Borg.
 
Hard agree. Assuming a population of 350 million people in 1400 (via Wikipedia). 0.003 yearly growth over 500 years gets you 1 billion(the approximate population in 1800). 0.002 gets you 750 million, and 0.004 gets you 1.7 billion (which is the upper bound of 19th century population).

Any small variation from the norm will have massive impacts late game because population works like compounding interest. A slightly less bloody 30 years war could mean a Europe with hundreds of millions of people. No Mingsplosion could do the same for China.

Famine, War & Disease helps a lot there.
 
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