• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
D4RGBO3N1xr8MhsfaTGT5DNNERZhnjijvnx4KgvFi0c2ZFBuMEvrfiht3yyayH6EloTJWJNKEh1VSCH_LsaJWUASqg1j0thITZivoIM3jtOzKM-IGlJFubDx6UZP-iMTRXmnCWAVsm5uKdmQD5F77i8


Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
  • 432Love
  • 170Like
  • 17
  • 13
  • 11
Reactions:
I like the name placement of those green Oz culture in Myanmar, or is it Zo ??

Another more relevant comment. I don’t know whether the first background snapshot showing number of pops in each province is going to be one of the map mode or not. But please make the text size corresponds to the number of pops. Currently it is just a big mess that is really difficult to find any big, important pops when it is being squeezed into the smallest font size possible just to fit in the province, and having distracted by other big bloated number of small pops in a large sparsely populated mountainous province.
 
So I assume that the usage of "Sunni" implies that the Sunni sect isn't going to be divided into a bunch of schools of theology like in CK3. This is probably for the best since the way CK3 handled it was weird at times.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I don't get this talk about EUV.

The game's codename is Project Caesar, obviously this must be Imperator: Rome II.

(Ignore the fact that Islam and medieval/early modern Christian denominations are confirmed to be in the game)
 
  • 21Haha
  • 2Like
Reactions:
... So which one is the so-called "controversial" last week? I think that everything is completely fine.
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.
I am sure that is what the Vic3 team said also.

Is there anything that was learned from Vic3 that has been able to improve the handling of PoPs People?
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Hard agree. Assuming a population of 350 million people in 1400 (via Wikipedia). 0.003 yearly growth over 500 years gets you 1 billion(the approximate population in 1800). 0.002 gets you 750 million, and 0.004 gets you 1.7 billion (which is the upper bound of 19th century population).

Any small variation from the norm will have massive impacts late game because population works like compounding interest. A slightly less bloody 30 years war could mean a Europe with hundreds of millions of people. No Mingsplosion could do the same for China.
I believe that population is quite easy to control if you introduce things like maximum agricultural output that will rise with time. Can’t have 2 billion people in 1560 if you can’t feed them. Additionally you can combat ahistorical overpopulation by making the effects of diseases and war exponentially worse for high population provinces.
 
  • 22
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I am sure that is what the Vic3 team said also.

Is there anything that was learned from Vic3 that has been able to improve the handling of PoPs People?

I believe Johan was behind Vic2 and was not working on Vic3, so he cannot be blamed for Vic3's problems.
 
  • 13
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Something I keep missing in all your games is a three tier culture system. You addressed that somewhat in CK3, when you introduced multiple aspects to cultures in CK3, language/heritage. But that still doesn't allow representation of greater commonalities between cultures. A catalan person would find it much easier to integrate in say Italy, than he would in the polish commonwealth. And should assimilate faster. Furthermore, the distance between greater culture groups should slow down assimilation, kind of how german settlers in eastern europe never assimilated until sometime in the 19th/20th century. Mentioning them because many of them got invited all over the place in that time period by eastern european kings to help develop the land.
 
  • 12Like
  • 2
  • 1Love
Reactions:
The line in north Sri Lanka coincides with the Kingdom of Jaffna’s borders post 1350.
so far basically all the evidence people have been compiling points to a ~1350 start date. We could still be wrong of course, but it's got me wondering what the start date will be
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
1710342796921.png

Doesn't Middle East here look very similar to the top map with population? After Hulaguid collapse, but before Timur
 
Last edited:
  • 7
Reactions:
Calling it now, the new starting date is 1356. Gives chance for the Hundred Years War to play out, the Reconquesta to play out, The Balkans are also able to play out, with we Byzantinophiles finally have a chance to restore the Empire without having to delve into voodoo magic to do so.
 
  • 22Haha
  • 9Like
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Something I keep missing in all your games is a three tier culture system. You addressed that somewhat in CK3, when you introduced multiple aspects to cultures in CK3, language/heritage. But that still doesn't allow representation of greater commonalities between cultures. A catalan person would find it much easier to integrate in say Italy, than he would in the polish commonwealth. And should assimilate faster. Furthermore, the distance between greater culture groups should slow down assimilation, kind of how german settlers in eastern europe never assimilated until sometime in the 19th/20th century. Mentioning them because many of them got invited all over the place in that time period by eastern european kings to help develop the land.
Victoria 3 especially has a problem with that, when you see "Cultural exclusion" meaning that anyone with European descent is fine living in my country.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Even Devs dont recognize Vicky 3 as a good game to make a reference.
 
  • 15Haha
  • 7Like
  • 5
  • 1Love
Reactions:
The thumbnail for this weeks dev diary sort of completes the thumbnail from last weeks one.
If this is some kind of trend then next week we might get a glimpse of europe.
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
Reactions: