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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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It is missing the Genoese (or North Italian) population unless it was too small to include. Also there wasn’t more than 150,000 people or so in the city by the time it fell.
from map cluse it is likely somewhere in the mid 1300s
 
Wow, just wow. Imperator:Rome sacrifice won't be in vain, and V2 fans will get something for them too... Isn't it too good? Thanks, Johan and Tinto!

I think I remember Lord Lambert made a video once where he said he wanted Johan to make EU5 precisely because Johan would draw the correct lessons from where Imperator went wrong. Three dev diaries in and that is proving to have been the correct call.
 
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Sounds okay. I think the devil lies in the implementation and that can only be judged later, perhaps even post-release. But it's good that there's nothing that immediately makes me go "eeewww, this can't possibly work!"

27518 provinces, using eu4 definition of that word, sounds both insane and super fun
Of course, 73% of those are within the HRE.
 
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This is just disappointing, i don't care at all for the focus on simulation i want an actual Grand Strategy game not a population simulator like VIC2. I actually like EU4 and would rather a "hypothetical sequel" be more build on EU4, rather than VIC and I:R systems. Though I'm sure it will be popular on the forums here, since everything that emulates VIC2 and lately I:R is "good" despite those games being very unsuccessful.
Totally agree with you
 
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I love you Johan!
 
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My only concern, as much as I love simulationism and loved this TT, is that hard population numbers as shown here could make it difficult to balance the game towards the endgame.
The game will presumably last for 400, maybe 500 years - I really, really hope that the systems interacting with population are robust enough to not make it so that we can end up with 200k population in 1800 or, on the other end of it, 10bln, breaking the game much more than would be possible with pops closer to I:R directly.
Hard agree. Assuming a population of 350 million people in 1400 (via Wikipedia). 0.003 yearly growth over 500 years gets you 1 billion(the approximate population in 1800). 0.002 gets you 750 million, and 0.004 gets you 1.7 billion (which is the upper bound of 19th century population).

Any small variation from the norm will have massive impacts late game because population works like compounding interest. A slightly less bloody 30 years war could mean a Europe with hundreds of millions of people. No Mingsplosion could do the same for China.
 
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I hope being a large empire will cause a lot of internal problems thanks to pops ,so that it will not be a map painting, but a simulation as already written, YAY! I want to collapse as delhi xD
 
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Just for you to know, EU3 had "numbers" of population and EUIV at its release didn't have Dev, but base tax. What you claim as being an integral part of EU has only been there for a few years.

I for one am glad the game will lean towards more simulation and less unrealistic mechanics, and I look forward for next week DD.
Hence me saying I want them to build on EU4 and base tax have nothing to do with POPs its every bit as gamey and abstract as DEV, also nobody in this forum cares what EU3 did, as is evident by this thread.

Personally I've found that the simulation aspects are usually the most boring and tedious parts of PDX games for me and i don't find it unreasonable that an EU4 sequel build on EU4 rather than cater to people who want a bigger focus "simulation".
 
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If the pops map is the definite political borders, I'm guessing it is almost certainly somewhere around 1356+ based on Southeast Asia. Lan Xang just formed, and Lavo, Sukhothai and Ayutthaya all exist at the same time. By 1390 Lavo is gone historically, and Lan Xang would not be around any earlier than 1355.
 
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It is missing the Genoese (or North Italian) population unless it was too small to include. Also there wasn’t more than 150,000 people or so in the city by the time it fell.
I feel like it might be the entire Byzantine population. Treadgold, in his 2001 A Concise History of Byzantium, estimated the Empire's population to be around 2 million in 1320. So the number fits.
 
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Pops? very cool :D
Can you make Britain lightly industrialized by 19th century?
Or game will end in 1700's so you can't even think about industrial revolution?

I wonder how robust economy is - can you mod in simpler Vicky themed politics, economy and demographics?
That is industrial era laws, industrial buildings (no need for PMs) and class dynamics fitting industrial era.
 
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To complete my endeavour, I went to do a bit of archeology, and Development has been announced exactly on March 27th 2015 as part of patch 1.12, which was released with Common sense on June 9th 2015. It's thus a bit less than 9 years old as of today.
 
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Hard agree. Assuming a population of 350 million people in 1400 (via Wikipedia). 0.003 yearly growth over 500 years gets you 1 billion(the approximate population in 1800). 0.002 gets you 750 million, and 0.004 gets you 1.7 billion (which is the upper bound of 19th century population).

Any small variation from the norm will have massive impacts late game because population works like compounding interest. A slightly less bloody 30 years war could mean a Europe with hundreds of millions of people. No Mingsplosion could do the same for China.
China had so many wars and rebellion that killed millions of people ....
 
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China appears to have a population of 88,5 million. Based on my understanding of their demographic history, this would put the time at early 14th century, 1350s-60s during the Red Turban Rebellions or the early 15th century. Based on the size of what appears to be the Delhi Sultanate, we can probably rule out the 15th century.

But I do hope most UI elements for China won't put the info on the Hainan island, but the much bigger and better visible mainland.
 
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Hence me saying I want them to build on EU4 and base tax have nothing to do with POPs its every bit as gamey and abstract as DEV, also nobody in this forum cares what EU3 did, as is evident by this thread.

Personally I've found that the simulation aspects are usually the most boring and tedious parts of PDX games for me and i don't find it unreasonable that an EU4 sequel build on EU4 rather than cater to people who want a bigger focus "simulation".
I respectfully disagree, but you have a point. I just wanted to show that the current way EUIV works hasn't always been there.

As for simulation vs "gamified", I already made clear I prefer simulation. But I would have been alright had development been kept, if and only if development had been made into something that is dynamic rather than something you can have a direct impact on. I find it even worst in EUIV that you can instantly affect it.

Population is the icing on the cake, really.
 
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  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.
Big fan of this model for EUV, hopeful that this also means that Estates are coming back :)
 
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