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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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Okay, hear me out, it’s definetely eu5…

They’ve shown us a screenshot of demographics of a city in north-eastern Spain, called Tarragona.

As you can see, there is a population of about 20k muslims living there, which means it is pre-inquisition period, especially considering that Tarragona is in the north.

From previous Tinto talks we know that map will cover the whole globe.

So we can conclude the following:

The start date is before 1478(beginning of the inquisition).

Considering the map, it also cannot be before 14th century, that is, before major maritime advancements.
 
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My only concern, as much as I love simulationism and loved this TT, is that hard population numbers as shown here could make it difficult to balance the game towards the endgame.
The game will presumably last for 400, maybe 500 years - I really, really hope that the systems interacting with population are robust enough to not make it so that we can end up with 200k population in 1800 or, on the other end of it, 10bln, breaking the game much more than would be possible with pops closer to I:R directly.
 
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Pops should've been left to vic, EU with a vic style pop system with literacy and everything just turns the game into medieval/early modern vic.

They couldn't introduce completely new mechanics without any testrun - and the only one that Johan was supervising was I:R. I would love to have EU5 based on estates, but it would be too risky for a game this big and basically a flagship for PDX.
 
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Curious to see how it will handle new world populations like, i sweeden colonized brazil, and afterwards britain took that colony could we have a quebec situation ? where there would be 2 types of brazilian pops ? or 4 if you count slaves
 
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This is amazing, I've always thought that Eu4 suffered from a lack of representation of the actual population of the earth at that time. Leading to issues like armies being way to big for the time period, North America being colonized too quickly, no representation of minority cultures and religions, etc. This is a really good step for the game to go in and was one of the big things I thought Eu5 would have to have to sell me on it over all the content Eu4 has currently.

I also hope you guys look into representing supply lines for armies in some way, one of the most unfun parts of Eu4 wars is dealing with the AI walking around the world in areas where they should realistically have no supply. This is most noticeable on Russia but its apparent in other areas like with colonization or overseas wars in general. By the late game colonial wars involve armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands where as in real life during the American revolution the British were only able to field around 50k men in America at that time.
 
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Yes, yes and yes. This is exactly what I expected, wanted and needed.

Pops are vital for a better simulation, they just should not be overdone. By keeping it to just a hand full of classes and identifiers it becomes manageable performance wise.

Gone are days of just summoning millions out of thin air or hundreds of years of wars having little to no lasting impact. By pops alone every outcome at the end of the game will feel vastly different. And only think of all the conversions to other pdx titles with this :D

Now we only need population pyramids, so losing 90% of your male 20-30 yr olds completely devastates your country <3

Folks, the future do be looking good!
 
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The map at the top implies a start date of late 1300s, it seems like a political map, ( it does not match up to the cultural map we are shown), and the delhii sultanate still controls Jaunpur, so it is before 1394
Looking through like one video of "every year in India" maps I would think 1310-1330. Definitely enough information to figure it out for someone who knows more about this history though.
 
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Pops should've been left to vic, EU with a vic style pop system with literacy and everything just turns the game into medieval/early modern vic.
As we all know the Industrial Revolution was kickstarted by the invention of Population in 1836. Before that, there were just a few hundred guys in the world, ruling over their Development and commanding a handful of their pals to convert some of their Development into a different religion, make diplomatic pacts with the other guys etc. But on January 1st 1836 suddenly there were millions of people everywhere and the world changed forever.
 
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no way thats not byzantium in the screenshot. we are so back byzaboos

Could be the state of Morea or another place right after the fall of Constantinople before Turkish migration. Could also be somewhere in the Second Bulgarian Empire before its collapse in the late 1300s.
 
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