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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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Probably the "Simulation, not Board Game." aspect, for some people and not liking POPs is just a part of it.

Emphasising a simulation over a board game is the correct call. Civilization or Millenium types are better for board game strategy, and going in that direction would squander the potential of a grand strategy game.

It is arguable in hindsight EU4 lent too hard in that direction and that this is a much needed course correction.
 
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I believe that population is quite easy to control if you introduce things like maximum agricultural output that will rise with time. Can’t have 2 billion people in 1560 if you can’t feed them. Additionally you can combat ahistorical overpopulation by making the effects of diseases and war exponentially worse for high population provinces.
Yea, instead of exponential curves they need of a logistical curve modified by things like technology that allows increasing the upper limit.
 
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Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
D4RGBO3N1xr8MhsfaTGT5DNNERZhnjijvnx4KgvFi0c2ZFBuMEvrfiht3yyayH6EloTJWJNKEh1VSCH_LsaJWUASqg1j0thITZivoIM3jtOzKM-IGlJFubDx6UZP-iMTRXmnCWAVsm5uKdmQD5F77i8


Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

View attachment 1094402
In case there was any doubt, this all but officially confirms EU5.

>POPs

Given the discussion on the forum, going to be controversial. I was more of the camp that they weren't needed but seeing as they're in the game, I'm not going to argue against them.

Simulation vs. Board game is a huge design departure from the previous iteration of the game, this will certainly have implications for other game mechanics.

The basic breakdown of culture/religion/class makes sense to me. Culture and religion were the main divisions in EU4. Class is weird. especially if we're going to be displaying straight numbers. In every single country, and in almost every province save maybe a few cities, peasants are just going to be 95%+ of the whole population. The composition that you show in the pie chart doesn't show any useful information to the player.

As I've seen others note in this thread, that works fine for Europe, but other societies were structured differently. I'm concerned it won't represent the Indian caste system, or step tribes well.

Seeing slaves is also interesting. There being laws implies some sort of political system where laws govern the rules the nation can play by. I think that will also imply a slave trade in the game, possibly both Arabic and trans-atlantic

The second screenshot shows Pops in a city near Barcelona. A surprising amount of Muslims still there, though I can't say I know for sure what the religious breakdown should be. Probably earlier rather than later.

Literacy being a factor in technological development is interesting, feels like a modern sensibility creeping in. If we look at technological advancement in this era, China was quite advanced at the start, the population wasn't super educated, but there were some very educated elites. The Renaissance and advances in "fintech" like double entry book keeping or joint-stock companies relied on a class of educated merchants and clerks. I guess what I'm saying is in general peasants mattered very little in this era, despite their overwhelming numbers.

I'm glad to hear about performance not being a big factor.,

Looking at that last screenshot, we probably have Byzantium with a population of roughly 1.2 million. Not too sure what to make of that. Seems like more than just the population of Constantinople, so maybe Thessalonica is also retained by the rump Roman empire. An earlier start date (c. 1350 or c. 1400 may be possible)
 
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I'm ready to be downvoted but I do prefer thousand times more the discrete pop system of Imperator with whole numbers (3,10,25...) than super high numbers (135k pops, 1.3M pops). My cognitive ability may be low.
 
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Something I keep missing in all your games is a three tier culture system. You addressed that somewhat in CK3, when you introduced multiple aspects to cultures in CK3, language/heritage. But that still doesn't allow representation of greater commonalities between cultures. A catalan person would find it much easier to integrate in say Italy, than he would in the polish commonwealth. And should assimilate faster. Furthermore, the distance between greater culture groups should slow down assimilation, kind of how german settlers in eastern europe never assimilated until sometime in the 19th/20th century. Mentioning them because many of them got invited all over the place in that time period by eastern european kings to help develop the land.
These Germans most often also simply were chased/deported after 1945.
 
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Even Devs dont recognize Vicky 3 as a good game to make a reference.

In fairness I think it is because Johan worked on Victoria 2, not Victoria 3.

Victoria 3 may surprise us all yet, but that's an entirely different topic (full dislcaimer, I like Victoria 3. I think its a good game with the potential to be great. I know, controverial opinion).
 
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Calling it now, the game is actually not EU 5, it's Vicky3.

When Johan didn't get chosen to make Vicky 3, it caused a schism in the Church of Paradox and Johan got exiled to Spain. But little did they know that he would declare himself the AntiDev. Now he is making Vicky 3 and pretending the other one doesn't exist, while making mean posts about it on this forum :>

Wiz is preparing an army to strike back, as we speak, but sadly he has no direct control over it and his fronts keep splintering into tiny bits.
 
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The population simulation is great news. I hope the inclusion of slaves as a separate social class implies we'll get an accurate representation of the slave trade.
 
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Now we only need population pyramids, so losing 90% of your male 20-30 yr olds completely devastates your country <3

yeah, probably something for our games in 10+ years or so..
 
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About the date, this is the Byzantine empire in 1340.

"Arvanites" are Albanians, and in this map the Byzantines own a part of Albania. Armenians are in a very small number, so there might be a minority of them at that time.
1710343520387.png
 
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Very nice DD.
 
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Will different populations be taxed at different levels? Really most important thing with POPs should be the possibility of representing asymmetry, especially between core regions and hinterland but also between different social classes.
 
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I notice that china has 88.56M pops so, if this data is right, it's 1450+. Considering the data error, it should be Ming definitely which ranged from 60M to 200M from 1368 to 1600s.

Yunnan is independent from China which is a more important sign. The Dali Kingdom existed from 937 until 1253, after which its former king work as local gonverner of Yuan with a Borgin new king until Ming's invasion. Having considered the situation of Khmer and the Thai states, I think that it might be around 1380s.

They will be aware that not everyone likes it
Well at least no longer adm dip mil XD. If they wouldn't play a more important role than that in V3, I think it's acceptable.
 
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Literacy being a factor in technological development is interesting, feels like a modern sensibility creeping in. If we look at technological advancement in this era, China was quite advanced at the start, the population wasn't super educated, but there were some very educated elites. The Renaissance and advances in "fintech" like double entry book keeping or joint-stock companies relied on a class of educated merchants and clerks. I guess what I'm saying is in general peasants mattered very little in this era, despite their overwhelming numbers.
I took it to mean that the literacy of the Nobles, Clergy, and Burghers would have a major impact on technological development. Less so the literacy levels of peasants or slaves. Similar to how, in Imperator, it's the Noble and Citizen pops that produce research points.
 
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so far basically all the evidence people have been compiling points to a ~1350 start date. We could still be wrong of course, but it's got me wondering what the start date will be
I am guessing 1368ish. Many inteersting events happening around here.
1368: Yuan falls, Ming takes over
1369: Trastamara become kings of Spain
The second phase of the hundred years war begins
Ottomans invade Bulgaria
1370: Timur establishes his empire
 
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27518 provinces, using eu4 definition of that word, sounds both insane and super fun. Now please tell me that terrain wont be visible when zooming in political map mode and im preordering, because pretty political map is one of the key aspects in grand strategy games for me.

not in political mapmode
 
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