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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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In case there was any doubt, this all but officially confirms EU5.

>POPs

Given the discussion on the forum, going to be controversial. I was more of the camp that they weren't needed but seeing as they're in the game, I'm not going to argue against them.

Simulation vs. Board game is a huge design departure from the previous iteration of the game, this will certainly have implications for other game mechanics.

The basic breakdown of culture/religion/class makes sense to me. Culture and religion were the main divisions in EU4. Class is weird. especially if we're going to be displaying straight numbers. In every single country, and in almost every province save maybe a few cities, peasants are just going to be 95%+ of the whole population. The composition that you show in the pie chart doesn't show any useful information to the player.

As I've seen others note in this thread, that works fine for Europe, but other societies were structured differently. I'm concerned it won't represent the Indian caste system, or step tribes well.

Seeing slaves is also interesting. There being laws implies some sort of political system where laws govern the rules the nation can play by. I think that will also imply a slave trade in the game, possibly both Arabic and trans-atlantic

We have confirmed that you can interact with certain classes through rights, privileges, and laws. I think this mechanic could allow the game to differentiate and properly represent the Arabic and Trans-Atlantic slavery, which worked in very different ways.

I think the way they represented social classes is too generalistic, very feudal estates at that.
Nonetheless, I do think it's enough, it does its job.
Nobles -> Aristocrats, upper strata, landowners
Clergy -> Priests, shamans, religious members
Burghers -> Urbanites, really. Artisans, clerks, merchants, etc.
Peasants -> Rural folk
Slaves -> self-explanatory


I mean it works perfectly, even if it'd be interesting to see a distinction between urban folk and the burghers, with "patricians" being a kind of high-class burghers to those who produce stuff in the cities.
 
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Famine, War & Disease helps a lot there.
Will famine/disease be more likely when population is high?

Stuff like Poland getting out of the black death without any bigger issues due to lower population density and less trade contacts would be a great feature to keep "being rich makes you richer" in check to some degree.
 
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I wonder if we will be able to just ignore all this different culture and religion stuff and be like "eh who cares about some rebels, let's keep expanding", or if it will actually limit our conquest. I really wish world conquest was impossible / nearly impossible.
 
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To complete my endeavour, I went to do a bit of archeology, and Development has been announced exactly on March 27th 2015 as part of patch 1.12, which was released with Common sense on June 9th 2015. It's thus a bit less than 9 years old as of today.

Development was originally designed to be reworked into the IR style POP system in autumn of 2017, but it was deemed as "too much work to change now, lets use it for Imperator instead".
 
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I wonder if we will be able to just ignore all this different culture and religion stuff and be like "eh who cares about some rebels, let's keep expanding", or if it will actually limit our conquest. I really wish world conquest was impossible / nearly impossible.
Wait, don't we all want to paint the Map in our own colour? :0
 
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I will assume the timeline will be after the black death which "ended" 1353, so players won't be starting the game with a looming or ongoing disaster killing half their pops.
 
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1356 start date pls

Pros

-Weak Yuan against Ming

-Golden horse starting to fracture

-Tenochtitlan founded (1328)

-Ottoman conquest of Balkans

-hundred years wars

-Granada still owns gibraltar and ceuta

-Pagan Lithuania

-Longer medieval experience



You can add more

Also, pls dont rush when making map, I mean make it completed (proper locations, tags, starting borders, sea tiles, wastelands etc)

No one wants to see one big placeholder manchu tag or other placeholder states until dlcs on that region( africa, americas…), I dont mean completed mechanics just completed provinces and tags for future work

Quite possibly actually, in the map you can see the Delhi sultanate controlling the Deccan
 
super curious what are the clues because I want to believe
Territory and Pops distribution in India, Indochina and Persia. Sephardic Jews in Tarragona and Muslims.
Some others have then watched various videos and posted here what they think is reasonable, then based on "interesting events" my personal bet is around 1368.
 
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I hope estates are still central mechanics! Pops are good too if handled well, though.

Is this system easily modded? I'd like to add hunter-gatherers and nomadic pops.
 
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