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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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I'm curious what the interactions with the pops and between pop will be. For example, in the medieval era the clergy and artisans were actually a source of scientific advancement and innovation. Would we be able to promote these two in some way to drive technological/ cultural advances? Would this upset another subset, like the nobility leading to rebellion or instability? Would we be able to enable policies to increase a pop like artisans and would this upset other pops?

It would be cool to also see the factions within each population. For example, if there is a split in the nobility we can grant more land/privileges to nobility that favors the player. Or spend money and resources on buildings and funding guilds or artisans for our nation. There are so many possibilities here!
 
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First off. Woah. A system like Imperator would've been great, but this..... I never DREAMED we'd get a pop system comparable to Vic2/3. The possibilities are limitless.

I'm wondering how it ties into other systems. Maybe coring is based off of satisfaction and/or culture? Internal unrest driving people to the colonies, warfare and occupation depopulating areas.... And the bit about laws is VERY interesting too.
 
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pretty much confirmed i think... sorry
I dont know how well simulated a game in that era can be if it doesnt include feudalism mechanics like CK does. The other issue of being over 100 years away from one of the main gameplay aspects that is colonization also confuses me. 1415 would have been a nice middle ground with an interesting scenario to go along with it. I'm just wondering what upsides starting before the 1390s (or even 1350 how some people are suggesting) could have that could possibly outweigh the negatives.
 
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I'm just wondering how well simulated a game in that era can be if it doesnt include feudalism mechanics like CK does. The other issue of being over 100 years away from one of the main gameplay aspects that is colonization also confuses me. 1415 would have been a nice middle ground with an interesting scenario to go along with it. I'm just wondering what upsides starting before the 1390s (or even 1350 how some people are suggesting) could have that could possibly outweigh the negatives.
I agree but let's see how this goes
 
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1356 start date pls

Pros

-Weak Yuan against Ming

-Golden horse starting to fracture

-Tenochtitlan founded (1328)

-Ottoman conquest of Balkans

-hundred years wars

-Granada still owns gibraltar and ceuta

-Pagan Lithuania

-Longer medieval experience



You can add more

Also, pls dont rush when making map, I mean make it completed (proper locations, tags, starting borders, sea tiles, wastelands etc)

No one wants to see one big placeholder manchu tag or other placeholder states until dlcs on that region( africa, americas…), I dont mean completed mechanics just completed provinces and tags for future work
According to the information on the map, I see that Delhi has the Deccan region. I think the starting date is 1345. But the problem is that China is unifying, why does Dali exist?
 
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My only concern, as much as I love simulationism and loved this TT, is that hard population numbers as shown here could make it difficult to balance the game towards the endgame.
The game will presumably last for 400, maybe 500 years - I really, really hope that the systems interacting with population are robust enough to not make it so that we can end up with 200k population in 1800 or, on the other end of it, 10bln, breaking the game much more than would be possible with pops closer to I:R directly.
I believe population simulation fits much more the Victoria series timeframe and gameplay. And as you mentioned this could make 95% of nations unviable or unfun, or have to be adjusted to unrealistic ridiculous amount. A lot of fan appeal from EU4 comes from that you can play ANY nation without having to necessary restrict your gameplay, compared to something like Victoria 2. I think the new "pops" will just be there for fancy flavor and influence tax income, but most gameplay will still come from trade and war as usual. Otherwise it will be difficult to balance nations like Portugal.
 
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I hope that this game chose a different approach to pops than V3, for the sake of performance. Using Hashmaps to represent diversity inside a pop is probably better than creating too many singular pops to the point that the player can't possibly keep track. (for example, they could've had employment buildings as a hashmap inside a pop that shares same status, culture, religion, location etc rather than creating a pop for every building).

And so far it does seem from the screenshot, that the population overview is more clear and condensed than victoria 3 (which did a bit too much of it to the point it hurt performance in my opinion)
 
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That's what Gujarat-Sindh looked like in the early 14th century, it was later that land reclamation happened IIRC.

On another note, I am very happy to see smaller Indian cultures like Tulu being represented in a cultural mapmode, this is a first for any Paradox Game AFAIK.

Illustrates the level of granularity you guys have achieved. Can't wait to see what's next!
 
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POPs have a natural way to model population movements and religous conversion. You subtract from one and add to another. I think they also model the importance of a kind of "founding population". Like the Puritans in New England. I do wonder how much Catholicism vs Protestantism, or their specific culture, mattered for the average peasant. It's easy to imagine asking a peasant anywhere from Spain, to France, to Poland "what are you?" and they'd answer that they were a Christian. The divisions mattered to elites in society, probably not so much to the masses. But also Martin Luther knew how to rile up the Peasants, and there were numerous revolts in the 1500s, so they probably had some idea.

I don't universally love the names. Peasants connote a kind of rural farm labor. Burghers imply a kind of merchant in my mind, though possibly also craftsman. Clergy might be church workers, but there were also monastic orders, that might be lumped in. I also wonder where a state's bureaucracy come from. Even in this era, there were lawyers, tax collectors, clerks that made sure armies were supplied, processed criminals, kept logs, etc. This kind of bureaucracy was especially present in China in the game's period. Maybe they will be lumped together with the clergy or burghers.

I'm interested in how the rural vs urban economy will work, because there probably will be something there. Are there going to be peasants in cities? Is food going to be tracked some way? Much to think about
 
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Was it as good for you as it was for me, @Lord Lambert ?

God, I need a cigarette after that dev diary and I don't even smoke!
Haha I guess I now know what your youtube account is called ;)
 
If, and that is a big -IF- the POP system as you described it really has no, or a negligible impact on performance, then I am all in favour. But you will of course forgive my doubts after Victoria 3 and how Stellaris was right after that 2.0 POP update. But, deliver on your promise of good performance, and you will have at least one happy customer right here.
 
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Figuring out the represented year of the big map:
1, Lan Xang with Luang Prabang, King Fa Ngum conquered this state in 1353 and made it the capital of his Kingdom of Lang Xang.
2, Lopburi along with the Suphanburi, Lopburi finally merged into the Ayutthaya in 1388, when Ayutthaya city was built in 1350.
3, A smaller Bahmani, indicates a timeline before 1347 Deccan rebellion.
4, Hoysola exists, which erased to exist in 1355.
5, Looking at the far-southeast corner of India, the tiny state is the shadow of Pandya Empire, which lost the former capital, Madurai to Ma'bar sultanate in 1335.
6, Bengal came into the quick game of tripartite powers from 1338, and finally been united in 1352.
From these informations, I could guess the Caesar Project is aimed to be set in 1337AD, the year of the start of the Hundred Years' War.
 
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What do the striped lines mean?
In Vic2 that means a cultural minority had over 25 (or 33? icr) % representation.

So for example if there was 65% Maratha and 35% Gujarati in a province, then the main colour would be Maratha and youd have striped lines in Gujaratis colour.
 
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