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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

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This seems paradoxical. You acknowledge that a strong Bohemia is a major departure from OTL, but you don't think the major historical event(s) that lead to Bohemias fall, The Hussite Wars, are important?
If we go back far enough we can always point to events that had influenced later events.

Why not let EU5 start with the 1337 arriere-ban which started the 100 years war? Why not go back to 1320 and the Declaration of Arbroath where Scotland asserted its independence from England? Pretty important for later events, huh?
And if we are at the topic of Scotland, why not move the starting date back to 1296 and the English invasion of Scotland due to their alliance with France? And if we are already in the 13th century, why not move right to the beginning of it because the 4th crusade was a major historical event that led to the Byzantine Empire being the handful of cities it was 200 years later?

You know what, screw EU5. Just make a DLC for CK3 and make one game spanning from 1066 to the early 19th century, because everything was so important during that time. Although i believe some of the later events during and after the Renaissance are hard do simulate in the same game with medieval things. Maybe we should make a seperate game starting, hmm... somewhere in the early 15th century perhaps? Seems like a good cutoff point. And call it... i don't know... Terra Universalis? Unversitas Europae?

But being more serious know and coming back to my original point, unless there is very heavy railroading involved, the Hussite Wars are one of the things that can potentially screw basically everything that happens after that. And i am not willing to sacrifice the defining events of the 15th-18th century era for the Hussite Wars. They are not that important from a gameplay perspective that they warrant making a somewhat historically recognizable Europe a thing of 1 out a 1000 games. I don't want the League Wars to only appear once every 500 games and I don't want Austria to be completely irrelevant 80% of the time.
 
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I honestly don't understand why POPs are controversial
Controversial doesn't mean universally disliked. This thread shows unsurprisingly a clear majority in favour of pops but there are some people with very convincing arguments against them. Concerns about performance being one. Now Johan claims that this is not an issue and I see no reason to doubt, but I'd rather see how this plays out when all mechanics are in place and the pops had a couple in-game centuries to migrate. And if future DLCs will change that.
There's also a couple threads on the forum that argue quite well in favour of dealing with estates rather then pops. And I'm inclined to agree. Then again, we might end up with both - Pops aggregating into various estates you need to keep happy to avoid devastating revolts. But I have yet to see a concept for that.
As for myself, Stellaris 2.2 burned away my excitement for having pops. Sure, a lot has changed since then and Stellaris had pops before, but they were not as fundamental as they are now and I simply did not have fun playing Stellaris since Tiles were scrapped.
 
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I do hope that Project Caesar's military system will be a bit akin to Imperator at times. Mostly the levy and legion systems. I don't think standing armies, akin to what usually happens in EU4, are not quite accurate.
I feel like I do not want to see the standing armies that much (mostly due to the sillyness of existing in the HRE and seeing two dozen dudes just standing around)

I wonder if it is possible to mod in more pop social classes (mages for anbennar/godherja for example).
 
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Something regarding pops and culture should be an ethnogenesis mechanic. A lot of cultures that exist today were embryonic in the past...

Perhaps cultures should work the same way "Locations" do. With supergroups and subgroups, and depending on your game and the events that occur, new cultures may appear spontaneously.

I did a little experiment in EU4 as an observer - I gave Serbia maximum tech, a bunch of mana and money on day 1 just to see what happens, I created a monster, with it having a clear shot at reforming the Roman empire as of early 1700s. A lot of goofy things happened - like Portugal and Britain becoming Orthodox, as well as Nogai.

But one thing that surprised me in the Nogai horde, and I'm not sure what happened - a single shitty province in the middle of the desert has the Serbian culture. Some sort of event, perhaps? It might have something to do with the royal marriage or whatever. And this made me think about migration mechanics.

If this happens in this new game - a bunch of pops moving somewhere in meaningful numbers, far away from their home, in a completely different environment - it would make sense for this culture to either assimilate into the surrounding population, OR, to over time, become their own culture.

This would be extremely interesting for Jewish pops - this is a process that happened among them multiple times. There are the 3 main divisions of Sephardi, Ashkenazi and Mizrahi, but these aren't compact either. They continued to split and splinter - the Sephardim that were sent to the Americas and those who left for the Balkans can't really be said to be of the same culture, no? Same for the Ashkenazi - German and Lithuanian Jews are similar, due to proximity and prolonged contact, but not the same, no? And don't even get me started on the plethora of Mizrahi divisions, as well as those isolated small groups like the Cochin Jews.
 
I can’t believe what I’m seeing ! I’m so excited but I want a good launch and not a barebones one, I like the sea lanes stuff especially the roaring forties in Indian Ocean is near where I’m originally from , combat and trade rework which trade sounds really good and I would love a colonialism revamp and upgrade from Eu4 where you have to interact with the natives when you land ashore and I don’t like too much politics but I would love family trees for monarchies and royal marriage to be more of a thing and not just an unlimited number ( but we don’t need ck3 level) . I love the pops system and the wide variety of cultures in a location and I hope we can have lots of realms And factions etc including small city states except I’d make sure my computer is powerful enough but I’d like Italia and HRE to her split up more than it is in Eu4 and I could go all day so I might stop here and I look forward to future Tinto talks
 
for people saying this could be a game in progress, it seems unlikely to me that everything conveniently matches the mid-1300s for an in-progress game starting in, for example, 1444. The much simpler and more likely answer is that this is a save starting in the 1300s.

I also think it's unlikely that they just tried this date out or did a mockup because surely the most obvious first date they would try would be the one they've already done in previous games, 1444/1453, rather than jumping a century back
 
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Having 2 start dates like in every other title (except Stellaris and Victoria 3 for now) might please everyone.

A 1356 start and a 1453 start. The first one opens up new options and possibilities throughout the world. The second one avoids the gaminess of Byzantium doing a comeback while ensuring that the major powers are ready to enter the early modern period in a way that would resemble history.

I think having 2 start dates like CKIII is probably likely at this point.

They won't focus on more than two, like they haven't done that in any game since EU4. HoI IV and CKIII both had 2 start dates, the others less. The first start date would be 1356 or pre-1356 and the second start date 1453 or even post-1453. It's good we see some variation, i've played a million games now starting in 1444. It's good to see a different starting situation. If people like 1444 so much, nothing suggests EUIV would suddenly become unplayable...

1356 would be set right after the end of the black death too which is interesting. If it's before that, than the black death would be even a major part of the start of the game.
 
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