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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
D4RGBO3N1xr8MhsfaTGT5DNNERZhnjijvnx4KgvFi0c2ZFBuMEvrfiht3yyayH6EloTJWJNKEh1VSCH_LsaJWUASqg1j0thITZivoIM3jtOzKM-IGlJFubDx6UZP-iMTRXmnCWAVsm5uKdmQD5F77i8


Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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I highly doubt they do multiple start dates, it isn't worth keeping them both updated. The fact that the game covers the whole world unlike ck3 and has population counts makes it even less likely they do it
 
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The choice of 1337 could satisfy a number of players that would want to face the "Crisis of the Later Middle Ages" if it is set up right. The usual "Great Powers" and popular tags aren't really that great yet, which could lead to many smaller nations (say a Peasant Republic by the North Sea or an independent Sweden) being able to make a much more enjoyable playthrough.

And I suppose that a more difficult early start date may lead some players to choose a later date where nations like the Ottomans are stronger. November 11, 1444 or a date in 1453 would familiar, and the year 1356 that is also being talked about sounds good.

It seems to be 1337 (or possibly even earlier). No later than 1350s almost certainly. I personally am happy with the early 14th century setup because of variation and I suspect a second start date probably in 1453 itself with the conquest of Byzantium.

I also believe due to it being generally less played and because of the game extending otherwise by 100 years that we might not see Age of Revolutions, however i don't really think an end date really matters and it means in the best or worst case one has 100 additional years to finish their campaign (and any achievements) if needed. We already have a lot of content in age of revolutions that most players never will see because they never get there or already blobbed by that much it has become pointless. Though take in mind that blobbing will not go as fast as in EU4 (if even being possible). One culture and one religion certainly will not be possible anymore, would also not be realistic.

I don't think there will be more than 2 start dates, but in CKIII we've seen two start dates and they both have quite far apart. I don't think we will have a start date in 1337 AND 1356. It will be one of the two, not both. Every start date requires attention and specific content and coding, they aren't going to overdo it and it makes no sense to have both a 1337 and 1356 start date. CKIII has a 867 and 1066 start date, 200 years apart from one other.
 
Here we go again.
All we see is a not particularly good-looking set of maps (I already want to mod a different font) and a short description of the most basic pop system ever (this is not to say I dislike pops, but come on, this doesn't look particularly exciting).

And yet, people already overhype themselves. This is Imperator dev diaries all over again.

The map has a lot of locations, that's good I suppose. But Imperator also came with a big map, and it was one of its weaknesses, as there was like 3-4 different playstyles. We want more things to do and more ways to play, not map painting simulators. Yeah I read that bit, "simulation, not boardgame", and it concerns me. The mana issue in Imperator wasn't that it felt too much like a boardgame, it's that there was no difference between all the kinds of mana - it wasn't immersive, the player just did the same thing all the time like in a cookie clicker.

What this dev diary says to me is "we didn't learn from the mistakes in our previous games, in fact we're doubling down on them". I hope to be proven wrong. I hope that at least each major country feels actually different at launch. I hope that it's not a retelling of the old classics, but a perfection of them.
 
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I wonder what it looks like with culture assimilation if you can't directly influence the pops
Very few empires used it in the middel ages. They move their own people in to areas and removed killed the orginal population.
 
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Pops are a godsend, the way they can organically structure and influence your gameplay has unlimited potential.

Imagine developing your pops' well being and education in order to boost research and technology then suddenly you engage in a war and a relevant part of your population gets killed or mangled thus becoming unable to provide any benefit to your kingdom, what do you do then? An unhappy and permanently injured population might light fires of revolt while slowing down your productivity and technological advances.

You'll need to rebuild your nation from the ground up, spreading wealth and facilitating social mobility while also keeping up birth rates so that you still have someone to take care of your fields, in this sense immigration might be weaponise to steal others nation pops but I reckon you should also be careful about it because different people and culture might prove to be a problem if they are not kept in check (imagine this system in the aftermath of a conquest war or colonialism!).

This whole system which was already rudimentally present in Victoria 2 will come as a natural check and balances when it comes to expansion and blobbing (a much better system than say governing capacity) while also encouraging tall play and strategic gameplay.

Can't wait!
 
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I don't know if people have asked this yet, but I'd love to see the cultural setup in so many places around the world now. With a cultural map as dense as that for India, it's got me hooked on what else Caesar has changed up in terms of that setup.
 
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Looks good but I think there should probably be a tribal pop type to represent nomadic people and tribal people. Obviously not a perfect solution but I think it would be a better fit than them being peasants. Basically I’d have it so that tribal pops produce full resources in a tribal nation but don’t in non tribal nations and probably vice versa.
 
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From what I've seen here, I know my opinion is controversial, but I'm gonna state it anyways.

I think that having the start date in the 14th Century is brilliant. Many historical processes that heavily and immediately influenced the Early Modern Era began during this century - the Renaissance comes to mind (yes, the Renaissance was born in the 14th Century, and not in the 15th - Petrarch, for example, lived from 1304 to 1374).
Not only what many people have said about the many happenings in this historical era is right - the Yuan Dynasty was imploding, the Delhi Sultanate was declining, the Ottomans had just begun their incursions into Europe, the Hundred Years' War was beginning, etc..., but I also believe that this hypothetical EU5 would model the last century of the Middle Ages much better than CK3, which lacks a population system (thus you cannot represent the urbanization that was occurring in 14th Century Europe), and has a lacking government system (thus you cannot represent how the European feudal states were beginning to re-centralize during the Low Middle Ages), among other simulation issues. Not only that, but the Low Middle Ages have a lot of continuity with the Early Modern Era - feudalism did not go away, and even if EU5 began later, it'd still need to accurately portray feudalistic institutions (which EU4 does not do).
As for railroading, I believe the best way would be to have the game's systems dynamically and organically lead to the historical outcomes most of the times, if they're designed and implemented well. If they do not, then it's not because railroading is necessary, but because the game's systems are not implemented well enough. Many of the great powers in 1444 were already on the track of being so in 1356. If, for example, the simulation fails to accurately portray the rise of the Ottomans, then that doesn't mean that the Ottomans should get “events” and “mission trees” to make them stronger than the rest of neighbouring states - which would really amount to applying a small patch, a band-aid -, it means that the simulation isn't good enough and needs to be changed. This is what people - I believe - mean by a lack of railroading. It doesn't mean that it's a free-for-all and that anything can happen, but that the simulation should be made so that the historical outcomes should realistically happen most of the times without being forced.

Here's my most controversial opinion, though. The game should last until ~1750, not 1836. I firmly believe that the Enlightenment and the rise of political awareness in the lower classes should belong in a different game, which itself would model revolutions and politics... Victoria 3. Or, rather, what Victoria 3 should've been. This hypothetical game should last from ~1750 until 1936, modeling the American Revolution, the French Revolution, and then all the different revolutions of the 19th Century, as well as the different wars that happened during this era - including the different coalition wars involving the French Republic and the French Empire. The problem is, of course, that Victoria 3 does not model war well at all, and thus this hypothetical game should be a new creation (or V3 should get completely revamped). Either way, this isn't relevant to the discussion, as we're not really discussing Victoria 3 here.
 
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I am curious about the underlying architecture, are you using some kind of Entity Component System to handle this amount of Entities in a performant manner? Is there a chance one of the Tinto talks or a spin off could talk about the architecture employed and its challenges? Thanks!
 
I think adding nomads as a pop-type would be good. I’m sure they intend to portray nomads somehow as a type of peasant, but I really do think it would display better in the UI if they were a different pop-type.

And for the native Americans too… how should their pope be displayed? It just seems wrong to have hunter/gatherers be peasants as well.
 
Given how you're planning on both population and "sea currents" it feels like you're also planning dynamic trade, which seems amazing. Either way I'm really interested in how population will impact warfare and sieges (assuming this is EU5) and how ethnic and religious minorities will impact the nations. This seems like it'll have a lot of potential!
 
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What is culture flipping and religion conversion like in Project Caesar. I see the statistics for them, but is it possible to alter them without moving pops around etc.
 
Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
D4RGBO3N1xr8MhsfaTGT5DNNERZhnjijvnx4KgvFi0c2ZFBuMEvrfiht3yyayH6EloTJWJNKEh1VSCH_LsaJWUASqg1j0thITZivoIM3jtOzKM-IGlJFubDx6UZP-iMTRXmnCWAVsm5uKdmQD5F77i8


Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

View attachment 1094402
This is pretty much what i always wished for with eu4 ck3 etc. so this is great news!