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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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i do hope that the screenshot UI is to conceal that it is (probably) EUV, because i dislike the modern-esque office spreadsheet vibes they give (namely the last photo) because vicky 3 i feel has a similar issue even if it is better "dated" (for lack of a better term) for the era
I hope the release version has something to give it flavor(like a parchment background and a more stylized font perhaps?)
 
Calling it now, the new starting date is 1356. Gives chance for the Hundred Years War to play out, the Reconquesta to play out, The Balkans are also able to play out, with we Byzantinophiles finally have a chance to restore the Empire without having to delve into voodoo magic to do so.
I really hope for 2 start dates honestly, this one for maximum randomness on the world map.

And one set in 1453 with the hyw and ottomans conquest on byzantium done, so the world doesn't end up like those games I played in 769 ck2.
 
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I really hope for 2 start dates honestly, this one for maximum randomness on the world map.

And one set in 1453 with the hyw and ottomans conquest on byzantium done, so the world doesn't end up like those games I played in 769 ck2.
Johan has been fairly clear in the past that supporting multiple start dates is not something he'd like to see going forward.
 
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@ItThatAltersSanity While I agree with your explanation, I don't think it means EU5 is in 3 years. If I followed well, it started being worked on by Johan in 2020. It probably took a while before he had a working "vision", and official work must have started later, but we are already in 2024.

I think he wants to ensure he is not making a catastrophic mistake (like with Imperator) and that those who will be the most ardent proponents of the game are behind him before an official announcement. He is probably confident enough to pitch the ongoing development, and wants to correct what he can, but if everything goes well, and with weekly DDs, I expect to see this game at the end of 2025.

EUIV had 45 DDs before its release. Let's say those EU5 (err, Project Ceasar) DDs are "pre-DDs" and that the game is officially announced at PDXCON this fall, it leaves about a year to fix the most glaring issues that would appear in this pre-DD phase.

I would also say that I don't believe the team would change the startdate entirely if they already did all the research on it, just to please a few people arguing that they miss their Habsburg. The byzantinophiles are far more important. In all seriousness, if there were near universal backlash over an important feature, it could be reworked, but I doubt the core of the game is going to be changed at this point.

I think those first few DDs lay the groundwork. You can't work for 4 years on something and then change everything a year and a hald from release.
 
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This sounds really interesting. A few quick questions.

1) Given the role you seem to indicate that people will play, is it correct to assume there won’t be any mana points or similar mechanic? I hope so as e.g. monarch points in EUIV is one of my least favorite things about that otherwise great game.

2) is it be correct to assume that population number and types are both important for the economy and your ability to field armies in such a way that there will be a trade off between economic growth and warfare through casualties suffered in war and peasants being in the army rather than behind the plow?

3) Will there be a strong trade element to how the economy works and if so will different locations have one or more trade goods associated with them?
 
It seems to be 1337 (or possibly even earlier). No later than 1350s almost certainly. I personally am happy with the early 14th century setup because of variation and I suspect a second start date probably in 1453 itself with the conquest of Byzantium.

I also believe due to it being generally less played and because of the game extending otherwise by 100 years that we might not see Age of Revolutions, however i don't really think an end date really matters and it means in the best or worst case one has 100 additional years to finish their campaign (and any achievements) if needed. We already have a lot of content in age of revolutions that most players never will see because they never get there or already blobbed by that much it has become pointless. Though take in mind that blobbing will not go as fast as in EU4 (if even being possible). One culture and one religion certainly will not be possible anymore, would also not be realistic.

I don't think there will be more than 2 start dates, but in CKIII we've seen two start dates and they both have quite far apart. I don't think we will have a start date in 1337 AND 1356. It will be one of the two, not both. Every start date requires attention and specific content and coding, they aren't going to overdo it and it makes no sense to have both a 1337 and 1356 start date. CKIII has a 867 and 1066 start date, 200 years apart from one other.

1337 as a start is very iffy, given the state Iran is in. The Ilkhanate was going strong until the death of Abu Sa'id in late 1335, and even then it limped on for a few more years (although with strife between internal factions) before finally collapsing. The screenshot shows a completely fragmented Iran, which wouldn't be the case until the 1340s or so.
 
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Not only a new EU, but actually EU: MEIOU and Taxes edition. I really hope that there is more inspiration from that mod, because it's a work of art with researched, thought out and developed systems that are hamstrung by modability of EU4.

If pop system is similar to MEIOU, then there really should be no issue with performance, as there is very little mobility between classes (perhaps subject to laws or technology) and individual pops don't constantly look for work but are rather staffed into industry based on class and size of the industry.

I'm also very happy with granularity of pops, as there is no need to split then into professions as in V3. I do think though that perhaps there should be another pop type representing nomads.

The ballooning of pops can also be easily controlled by availability of food, apart from diseases, wars and various other disasters. Technology here helped only little and most people did work in agriculture well until industrial revolution, where machines replaced people and freed up massive portions of population for other work.

I'm really curious to see how economy will work as these pops will still have needs that will have to be fulfilled. I hope that trade is mostly automatic with plaster agency really being only laws regarding who can trade and tariffs, as well as ways to deal with piracy.

I'm also very curious about technology. Hope there's more granularity and that technology progresses more through individual inventions that spread from a single province through your empire and to/from your neighbours. These can then be basis for institutions. So as not to railroad Europe to always dominate, but to also not have absolutely unstoppable China, or at least not every game.
 
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"Nepali" culture broken into Khas, Tharu, Magar, Newar and Limbu? "Bihari" into Bhojpuri and Maithili? Heck yeah, I used to pray for this!

1710473471424.png


Edit: Extremely pleased with this culture map. So glad to see several small ones like Tulu (Dravidian), Ho and Munda (Austroasiatic), Sikkimese (which used to be just lumped under Tibetan) and the many northeast Indian peoples like Bodo, Garo, Khasi, etc.
 
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EUIV had 45 DDs before its release. Let's say those EU5 (err, Project Ceasar) DDs are "pre-DDs" and that the game is officially announced at PDXCON this fall, it leaves about a year to fix the most glaring issues that would appear in this pre-DD phase.

I would also say that I don't believe the team would change the startdate entirely if they already did all the research on it, just to please a few people arguing that they miss their Habsburg. The byzantinophiles are far more important. In all seriousness, if there were near universal backlash over an important feature, it could be reworked, but I doubt the core of the game is going to be changed at this point.

I think those first few DDs lay the groundwork. You can't work for 4 years on something and then change everything a year and a hald from release.
Plausible interpretation. The announcement date can be changed depending on reception to these Tinto Talks.
 
So Pops, uh ?
I hope you look into data and join the number of players on EU4 and Vic3 (or Vic2). No Pops remove some gameplay aspects from the game, and with Pops I'm having some problems on understanding how to manipulate them on Vic3, coming from EU4. Take your time to survey your audience about this :D

For me... this project should start from the fall of the western empire and move forward. With Pops, technologies, dark ages and rise of Europa Universalis in 1800 :D A dream, I know, but could trigger not only a game service standing 10 years, but 30 years. Again, we all love Rome, right?
 
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So Pops, uh ?
I hope you look into data and join the number of players on EU4 and Vic3 (or Vic2). No Pops remove some gameplay aspects from the game, and with Pops I'm having some problems on understanding how to manipulate them on Vic3, coming from EU4. Take your time to survey your audience about this :D

For me... this project should start from the fall of the western empire and move forward. With Pops, technologies, dark ages and rise of Europa Universalis in 1800 :D A dream, I know, but could trigger not only a game service standing 10 years, but 30 years. Again, we all love Rome, right?
Nah that would stomp on the Crusader King franchise timeline. EU is for late medieval forward
 
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« 27,518 unique locations on the map ».
Locations. Not provinces. Could this be a kind of ck3 compromize, ie you would get about 5000 provinces with 4 « baronies » or cities ? That you would not be able to conquer individually, like in ck3, but that you would be able to siège down, culture concert, etc.
Or can we really expect 27000 provinces to conquer ?

Personally, I’m not a fan of world conquest which I feel becomes quite boring in late games, and even the mighty Spanish and British empire did not achieve that in their time.
However, more granularity is always awesome to maintain the regional hegemony interesting, ie letting the British still have something to struggle for in India in 1800… instead of conquering north Siberia
 
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Seems like pops have been made less of a VIC3 model, but more of an Age of History model ?
Not « packets » of people but more of a sum of individuals which are represented by a percentage in each province, and nation wide ?
I guess it helps a lot with performance, if they are stored as a fraction of the province population ?
Also, in AOH2, cultural conversion and religious conversion were more of a progress than a definite One time action like in EU4. If you had some 67% telugu in your province, you could send your diplomat to gradually convert x% per month. If you had to stop any time, unlike in eu4 this would stay at the current conversion percentage and not revert back to where it originally was
 
Do you have any plans to simulate the effect of rivers and river basins on the economy and overland travels?
Rivers and waterways were probably the most important natural infrastructure for continental trade and travel and could have an effect similar to what you have mentioned about "sea currents" where places at similar distances could have different travel times and ease of communication if they are situated on the same river (or canal) or river basin (or canal system) or not.
Potentially this "ease of contact" could be used to simulate a more organic growth and diffusion of things like cultures and religion as well.
 
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« 27,518 unique locations on the map ».
Locations. Not provinces. Could this be a kind of ck3 compromize, ie you would get about 5000 provinces with 4 « baronies » or cities ? That you would not be able to conquer individually, like in ck3, but that you would be able to siège down, culture concert, etc.
Or can we really expect 27000 provinces to conquer ?

Personally, I’m not a fan of world conquest which I feel becomes quite boring in late games, and even the mighty Spanish and British empire did not achieve that in their time.
However, more granularity is always awesome to maintain the regional hegemony interesting, ie letting the British still have something to struggle for in India in 1800… instead of conquering north Siberia
If I had to hazard a guess, locations will be used for calculating pops, for where your armies move (location to location rather than province to province) and type (I suspect urban and rural at a minimum as a distinction). Perhaps each location will generate one trade good, meaning on the province or area level there's a mixture?

I imagine the economy (buildings) will be handled on either the province or area level. I would prefer the area level myself, as I think fewer economic units of greater importance is a more meaningful game than dozens of provinces you spam click, but we shall see how that works out in time. Areas are the equivalents of States here, and I do recall that they wished they could do more with them in EU4 but because they were an addition rather than a foundational part of the game, they never could.

I think in war though, conquet will be handled on the province level as the location level is TOO granular for that whereas areas would be too big.
 
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