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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.


View attachment 1094402
Awesome !
Finally, we will be less of an all powerful ruler who decides everything in the nation but more of a leader who orients it, but still has to take into account the general situation and react to it.

Hopefully, this will also mean more variation in the government structure, with more emphasized specifics of kingdoms vs republics Vs theocracies.
For example, the British or polish ruler might be less of an autocratic ruler, but still require the support of the nobility / House of Lords etc, parliament, estates…
I guess we will see that in the next dev diary.

Something I also hope for, is more inner interaction : here are some suggestions

- lobbying groups of merchants / religious / noble interests. One could for example see the French Catholic league asking the king for condemning and expelling Protestantism, while the Huguenots merchant class on the other hand would ask for more trade rights, safe cities, the edict of Nantes for religious rights…
As the king, you would not decide your nations fate, but rather being the arbiter of your estates interests and face the consequences of disappointing one group / or finding the compromîtes middle ground.
Having one estate ask for slavery ban, while your sugar landlords would be opposed in order to maintain their wealth (ie Napoleonic france dilemma).

- naming governors in royal colonial provinces… some of which may create religious intolerance, mismanage your colonies, having to be replaced.

- Commercial charters getting trade monopoly in the Indian ocean / river basins of the new world ; diplomatic, military and colonial autonomy (ie the Hudson Bay Company or the East India company / VOC being dedicated autonomy to manage a region of your realm)… as the king, you would not to build and send in mission every single trade ship in the country, but instead plan the good condition for your merchant class to prosper and develop their fleet and commercial relations

- granting regional governorates as the Ming / Qing / ottoman to manage your expanded empire, some of which might create regional corruption, sometimes rebel.
develop your administration to gradually represent the transition from feudalism to nation states,
 
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I look forward to Victoria Universalis
 
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Definitely its eu5 .The timeline suggests so.Khas kingdom(Nepal) has disintegrated which started from early 14 centuary after Rajput immigration (post 1303) .Delhi sulatanate seems to not own Bengal(which they gained in 1310's) and still has the southern provinces in bahamanis which they started loosing since 1350's.Date is most probably the mid 14th centuary .Cant wait to see more.
 
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1710507116346.png


Is there any difference between Catalan, Andalusi, and Sephardi besides the religion? Are they just different religious flavors of the same culture? That is, if the Jews or Muslims convert religion do they also convert culture?
 
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View attachment 1095891

Is there any difference between Catalan, Andalusi, and Sephardi besides the religion? Are they just different religious flavors of the same culture? That is, if the Jews or Muslims convert religion do they also convert culture?
About sephardis I do not know. I guess it is to be easier later in game if they are expelled to be same culture rather the different iberian cultures merge post expulsion. Andalusian I suppose that represent moriscos, which mantained a distinct identity after conversion (many of which were fake conversions) and were heavily discriminated until their expulsion in the 1600s.
 
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I have thought more about the cultural system, and have decided to further upon on it.

Why are Finnish and Hungarian in the same group?

They aren't. I have chosen colours that resemble ethnolinguality, they are for eye pleasure.

BUT

They do have similarities. I do know that a Hungarian is probably more related to a Romanian both genetically and culturally, but we can have both Hungarian similarities with Finnish AND Romanian, instead of going with one.

You see, I have added a small thing called influence zones. Influence zones work just like cultures. For Example:


Ungaric Languages:

Erdely (Influenced by Romanian), Hungarian (Influenced by Romanian)

First of, yes, I am too bored to make a graphic about this. But one may understand what I have tried to do here. Every subculture in this game gets revamped and becomes a culture isolate. A culture isolate can be totally influenced by another culture, say, Hungarian and Romanian, or just be partly influenced in some localities, like Turkish.

An ethnicity cannot influence itself, like Danish can't influence Anglo-Frisian since they are cousins.

A culture with the same macrogroup-- for example, Germanic-- does not have much buffs when they conquer a cousin ethnicity's land, just a bit less painful from a different totally unrelated subgroup. But when they manage to conquer most, if not all, of their cousin ethnicity's land, the fun begins.

Every macrogroup should get their own formable nation, in my opinion. Sounds cliché, but, Arabia for the Arabic, Budun for the Turkic, Germany for the Germanic, etc. When a macrogroup's nation gets formed, every subgroup gets merged into one huge macrogroup, slowly. (By slowly, I mean a century or two, but even then, it may be unhistorical with ones like Sinitic).

If you still have things to tell such as ''You can't just expect that Maari people understand people from Hungary better than they do for the Russians.'' or that ''The game would be unbalanced'' or ''Indo-Europeans are culturally unrelated'' please, I beg you, read the whole text again, head to the start.
 

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@Johan I created an account to just say:

1. Please make the map as beautiful as Imperator Rome.

2. I hope the current UI is just a placeholder and would be changed because the game looks like Vicky. PLEASE. The map graphics, UI, and Font looks like Vicky and needs to be changed to make it unique from Vicky 3.
 
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One of the most important things is to keep the game CHALLENGING even in the advanced stages of the game.
Now, in EU4, roughly after 1600, the player manage to make his nation the most powerful on the globe and the game becomes TOO EASY (therefore also boring)
 
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"Nepali" culture broken into Khas, Tharu, Magar, Newar and Limbu? "Bihari" into Bhojpuri and Maithili? Heck yeah, I used to pray for this!

View attachment 1095658

Edit: Extremely pleased with this culture map. So glad to see several small ones like Tulu (Dravidian), Ho and Munda (Austroasiatic), Sikkimese (which used to be just lumped under Tibetan) and the many northeast Indian peoples like Bodo, Garo, Khasi, etc.
I was equally surprised at the representation of minor cultural groups AND tribal Austroasiatic peoples like Ho and Munda, which will open up avenues for swaying tribal fiefdoms into spheres of influence - for example, Orissa and Bengal can *actually* fight for garjati and chattisgarhi loyalty or alternatively bigger, stronger tribal nations can arise. However, I'm baffled by the "Assamese" culture in north Bengal, feels like a mistake - especially considering the Ahom culture is accurately represented further east in Assam.
 
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@Johan I created an account to just say:

1. Please make the map as beautiful as Imperator Rome.

2. I hope the current UI is just a placeholder and would be changed because the game looks like Vicky. PLEASE. The map graphics, UI, and Font looks like Vicky and needs to be changed to make it unique from Vicky 3.
It’s still early in development. Obviously they will work on it.
I do support your point though, it needs its own aesthetic, but I would not hope for it to be totally different since it, most likely, uses the same engine as CK3 and VIC3
 
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One of the most important things is to keep the game CHALLENGING even in the advanced stages of the game.
Now, in EU4, roughly after 1600, the player manage to make his nation the most powerful on the globe and the game becomes TOO EASY (therefore also boring)
Definitely agree
I guess that adding more provinces will help a lot, as it will
- allow to start as a smaller nation (kind of like starting as a count in ck3)
- hopefully, play tall. Not just spending admin point on dev But also surviving your almighty neighbor until it crumbles (Safavid take over of Persia… small mountain kingdoms such as Georgia / nepal maintaining their independence or their separatism for centuries although close to gigantic neigbbors, sometimes even playing one against the other)
- not aim only for WC but make regional conquest more relevant and challenging.
- the cultural system they are developing seems to allow for more inner interactions. Hopefully.
Meaning more things to do outside of war. Which given that it’s been a constant complaint throughout the whole EU4 lifecycle, they have probably taken into account.

I hope vassals will also be less of a stand and wait situation. Do more things on their own, try to play along rivals to maintain their independence (Moldavia…), sometimes even voluntarily swearing fealty / paying tribute to a neighbor to then switch side when the time is ripe.
Hopefully have non exclusive vassal relations (ie sapmi who payed double taxation to Swedes and Novgorod, or burgundy which was both a vassal to France and the HRE for its respective territories…) to get protected by both against each other.
 
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This is the core of what I want to see with these lightweight pops. Will events care that pops of two antagonistic cultures are residing in the same location (and whether they share a religion promoting inter-cultural harmony)? That the urban pops lording over surrounding rural pops are of an alien culture and religion?

I'm also curious what granularity there will be for army units. EU4 has a magic global pool of manpower, letting you recruit 100k soldiers from one province (over many many years). With pops and army units walking around the map, I form initial expectations that you have to spread recruitment around your empire: i.e. the player can deplete a province/region of local manpower. Meaning pops will track 2 numbers: total population and recruitable population (not exactly a proper age pyramid). From this, I can extend my expectation that individual regiments could (if performance permits) track what cultures/religions they originated from. This leads to army cohesion questions ("I don't want to stand in formation with Those People!"), disease ("what do you mean it's filthy to do This?") and what happens if regiments are disbanded far from their recruited origins. Do they try to fit in with the locals or teleport back 'home' (however that's determined)?

On a tangent, will the classification of locations as "rural or urban" be dynamic based on pops? If a city somehow gets sacked, plagued and starved to the point there's barely more pops than surrounding rural areas, will that location become 'rural'? If a mass of pops decide (by player direction or otherwise) to all settle in one rural location, will the swell in pops flip it into 'urban'?


Perhaps it's much too early to talk about these things, but these are the sorts of questions I'd like to see addressed in future Tinto Talks.

Completely agree! Spain, although having a massive empire, emptied out as a result of all the European wars and had a massive decline in population compared to France or England. Their men either died in war or moved to the new world to seek gold and glory, or just a plot of land to start farming. Would army recruitment only be viable in areas with the predominate accepted culture? Would trying to recruit in areas with a minority culture cause rebellion (i.e. Catalan in Spain)?

Also, how would this work politically. One thing that EU4 is missing is internal politics. It forces you to play an ever outwardly expanding game, the game basically requires it, because that's the only play available. Unlike CK2-3, you don't have to manage different lords, or your royal family, and you don't have to think at all about the factions within your realm and who you can empower or weaken to strengthen your grip on power and stability. I'm not asking for CK3 level of dynastic control, but some interaction and control or challenge from it would be a welcomed addition and really complete the game. The time period EU4 plays in, this was HUGE! Just looks at the Iberian union, the Personal union of Spain and Portugal, the various English Civil Wars, the Dutch house of Orange coming to the throne of the UK, the UK forming. etc. Also, unlike Vicky 3, internal laws and the people you empower are just an after thought. There really isn't a way to direct the progression of your government and what kind of society you are building. They tried to implement this with the Government reform mechanic, but like most things in EU4 when it come to internal politics, its shallow and inconsequential. Like the transition from a feudal system to a centralized monarchy, or other centralized form of government, should really rustle some feathers as you are stripping power from powerful part of your realm. The player should be challenged from this direction in the game.

Wondering if they are considering adding this to the game. Computing technology has progressed so much since EU4's development that they can add a lot. Hope they do!
 
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I don't really understand what the issue is. You're assuming you can't just speedrun any % colonisation at game start (I'm pretty sure guides will be out within days of release for this).

As a counter point I've seen some people argue for more Crusader Kings features in Europa Universalis, even if stripped down. So the argument that there's some fundamental difference between how the two periods worked doesn't compute, especially when the core gameplay of CK series about family ties and inheritance was still a hot scene of the political landscape well into the 19th century historically. So I'm stumped with what exactly you should be upset with having the start date be in the mid 1300s and not the mid 1400s.
Having a golden horde till holding muscovy in the 17th century, or maybe, having france, England Portugal or castille disappear even before the colonization start ? The fact that Austria might never get emperorship or ottomans staying a little beyliks for the entire game ?
You get it, all the ahistorical crazyness that's involved by having an earlier start date.

Dont get me wrong, there was still a lot of problem in the 1444, but there was a certain consistency in the games expect for a very few ones, you had Russia forming, Commonwealth,the Austria union with Bohemia and Hungary, the end of the hyw the way it did, the Sweden independance, the trastamara union, the ottomans expansion, the formation of persia.
 
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Assuming that this is for an entire country (it is likely, given the numbers), the population chart/display shown at the bottom is of Byzantium. The number of people is over one million, mostly Greek. It is fair to assume these numbers represent countries at the start date since I doubt the game is even at a playable state where they could run through conquest campaigns to get this far. This means that the game will likely not take place in 1444 like EU4, and instead will likely take place before the complete downfall of the Byzantine empire, likely to be in the 1300s.
The population map further backs this idea up, as you can see a very large nation encompassing a large portion of northern and central India, which might be some sort of representation of the Delhi sultanate.
If this is true, this will mean that we have a large, but crumbling Yuan empire at the start date, and instead of a powerful Ottomans at start date, we will instead have a lot of Turkish tribes and the ability to form the Ottomans with any of them. This would also be before the Timurids formed, so a gameplay path would be to form them and then later in the game deal with the instability problems.
 
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Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

View attachment 1094402
This looks like imperator rome system alot