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Tinto Talks #31 - 2nd of October 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets of our upcoming game, with the codename Project Caesar.

Last week we talked about wars and wargoals, and today we are going to talk about how wars will end, as we discuss the peace system. If you have played other GSG games for Paradox, some of this may not be news to you though.


Peace Offers
To end a war you need to negotiate a peace with either the leader on the other side, or if you are the leader on your side, you can negotiate a separate peace with a single independent country on the other side.

One thing that is important to notice, is that if you declare war for a war goal to conquer a certain province, then you can not take any other land, UNLESS you take the wargoal.

To be able to take land, you also need to have control over the province capital.

A Peace Offer, will consist of a set of treaties that can have a total value of up to 100 Peace Cost. Of course the other side would have to agree, and they are very likely not to accept anything where the peace cost is higher than the current warscore.

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Peace in our time?

Peace Treaties
A peace treaty can be the transfer of a location, province or area. It can also be to force another country to stop sending privateers, or transferring gold to you, or dismantling fortification in a location, humiliating them or any other of the dozens upon dozens of possible peace treaties of Project Caesar.

The cost of each treaty depends on many factors, whether it’s part of the wargoal or not, the population, the type of the treaty and so on.

peace_cost.png

Numbers are still being tweaked..


Aggressive Expansion
Aggressive Expansion is one of the drawbacks of strengthening your own country ahead of others. Taking territory is one of the easiest ways to increase it. While taking land impacts your own country a fair bit, it also impacts the opinions of other countries near the source of the aggressive expansion a fair bit. If you get your AE high enough, countries with a low enough opinion of you may join a coalition against you. A Coalition is an international organization oriented around severely reducing the power of a single country.

ae_impact.png

We can probably live with this AE though?


War Enthusiasm
When it comes to how willing a nation is to fight, much comes down to their War Enthusiasm. If this is high then the AI is unlikely to accept a peace that is not favorable to them. This is determined by the state of the country, with war exhaustion, control of capital and military strength are big factors. For the leader of a side in the war the overall military balance is a huge factor as well.


enthusiasm.png

Bohemia really wants to continue this war…


War Participation
Most of the time you bring allies to help you out in a war, but they expect to be rewarded for the part they pull. The War Participation is how much a country has contributed to the progress of the war. This is primarily done through battles, blockades and sieges.

You may sometimes have to convince your allies to join an offensive war that you are starting, and thus you can promise them part of the spoils of the war. If the part that they gain from signing a peace is less than their participation they will get upset.



Stay tuned, as next week, we’ll talk about the conflicts in the world that do not involve declarations of war, and negotiations of peace.
 
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matfer13 said:
Can we have a list of all the different types peace treaties that are in the game so far?
Click to expand...

Some are code generated, like gold, sacrificing nobles, taking locations, making subjects and releasing countries.

Many are 100% from script like these..

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Does distance of war goal from the capital affect war enthusiasm in any way?
Could a nation in Africa take a small unguarded colony from say GBR and force a peace deal because the colony is too small and far away to make a response worth it?
 
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Failtier said:
I made this point already in last TT, but Aggressive Expansion (AE) feels extremely outdated compared to other much more innovative approaches of PC. If Bohemia takes Berlin from Brandenburg, why would Brandenburg ever forget that the Bohemians did that to them? Did Maria Theresia ever forget that Frederick took Silesia from her (well no, she didn't, and she did everything in her power to make friends with her arch enemy, the French, in order to take Silesia back).

A small country at the border to the Ottomans should not just join a coalition once the Ottomans gobbled up every other state around them, and then come to the conclusion "well, I had enough now," they should always be willing to join any coalition vs. the Ottomans. Once the Prussians take Silesia, which is the most prosperous province of the Austrians, the way how Prussia is perceived by others in terms of their military capacities should overall change; the potential threat that Prussians now pose to others does not just magically tick down over time, they are now considered as one of the most powerful countries in Europe. If someone becomes the economic hegemon, they too should be perceived as someone who could be a threat in many terms as they could just hire a bunch of mercenaries against others.

Honest feedback here, AE is a bad mechanic for many reasons:
  1. It is "gamey" because it is just a number that ticks down, which implies other actors just "forget" about the incidents that triggered it.
  2. It is applied only after the peace treaty has been signed, so only to some degree useful in terms of preventing snowballing.
  3. The threshold of 50 seems arbitrary, which is against the general design philosophy of PC which removed arbitrary limits like force limit
  4. AE is just a number, and many players don't care about it too much anyways as they will continue expanding somewhere else.
And many more reasons that we will hopefully discuss here.
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I think you are right and wrong at the same time.

Maria Theresia did not forget Silesia, but as time passed every other country accepted it. Even Austria.

The reason for this is the change of state interests over time.

And is it really a good idea to make "eternal coalitions" possible? I think not.

I would argue that building a big empire should always be possible in any EU game.
 
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Azgabeth said:
Kinda sad about no bilateral peace treaties…

At least for the underlying tech to be there for Multiplayer Games.
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perceval350 said:
Can you do a bilateral peace deal?
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the devs stated long ago that the Ai cannot handle it

"in Vic 3 The Ottomans consistently reconquer their lost Arab holdings and then in the same deal give Egypt Ankara."
a random complaint for what bilateral peace look like if implemented

bilateral peace was never in eu games and there is a good reason for why its not here called border gore . unless you want china to suddenly appear in europe it should not be a brainless hype train . the Ai will ruin the map with it especially in coalition wars
 
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Will there be a mechanic for multiplayer, whereby you can force a peace on another player at certain warscore %, or cause them nation-wide instability (like EU4 stab-hits)?

Players are famously stubborn, so devastating their entire countryside and starving their pops might not be enough to persuade them to accept your peace deal

 
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Given that everything seems to go up to 100 in this game, am I reading into these numbers correctly in saying that 73 AE can only represent the most righteous, justifiable forms of conquest? Like when the siege of Vienna was lifted or when I raze Stockholm as Denmark, no?

Jokes aside, is 100 the name of the game? And if so, is 100 when countries start getting mad or is 100 when the whole world comes together to stop you a la Vic2?
 
LiquidIExtasy said:
Please add the option to satisfy allies directly in a peace deal with money!

Then it would also be more interesting for players to join the wars of AI allies. I don't want provinces, I want MONEY from you for my war effort!
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Instead of favors and land? Like a monetary promise?
 
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Shouldn't AE be at least partly permanent?you went a long way to stop snowballing with integration and control but doesn't it strike you as incredibly stupid that everyone of our neighbors forgets that the player is an existential threat to them after 5-10 years?
 
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Having to occupy a provincial capital before you can demand that province makes sense, though increases the length of a war if you're for example taking huge swathes of Siberia from Russia. Or demanding Pacific Islands from one of the colonisers.
 
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Johan said:
Some are code generated, like gold, sacrificing nobles, taking locations, making subjects and releasing countries.

Many are 100% from script like these..

View attachment 1196575
Click to expand...
You gotta lead with this stuff! Dismantle Fort and Execute Ruler alone swung how I felt about this DD in a more positive direction! :D

I imagine it's an easy task to script more treaties, too? Well, as easy as any other script-based modding, anyway.
 
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Krey_Lollipop said:
Given that everything seems to go up to 100 in this game, am I reading into these numbers correctly in saying that 73 AE can only represent the most righteous, justifiable forms of conquest? Like when the siege of Vienna was lifted or when I raze Stockholm as Denmark, no?

Jokes aside, is 100 the name of the game? And if so, is 100 when countries start getting mad or is 100 when the whole world comes together to stop you a la Vic2?
Click to expand...
It's been said that it is at 50 where coalitions appear
 
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