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Tinto Talks #34 - 23rd of October 2024

Hello and Welcome to another Tinto Talk, where we spill information about our entirely secret unannounced game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about how slavery works in this game.

Slave Pops
One of the six types of pops we have are the slaves. These lack pretty much every right in all countries, and are simply exploited. They are not allowed to move around on their own, they have harsh enough lives that they are basically only keeping the current population levels at best of times, and they have absolutely no income nor any political power. If they get any sort of literacy they are very likely to be rather upset. At the start of the game the usage of slaves is mostly gone from Europe, but it's more prevalent in other parts of the world.


slaves_cairo.png

Part of the slaves in Cairo at the start..

Usage of Slaves
Slaves are primarily used in resource gathering operations, but they can also be used in various buildings. These types of buildings can be categorized into two types of buildings.

First we have the slave-soldier buildings that require slaves to function, and produce manpower or sailors. These include buildings like mamluk or janissary barracks that provide a part of the armies of the Mamluks and Ottomans.

The second category of buildings are the plantations. These are buildings that you can unlock from Age of Discovery advances. There are three types of plantations, for sugar, tobacco and cotton. These are far more productive than the RGO for the same goods, but require slaves to function.

galley_barracks.png

One unique building to get you a lot of sailors.

Of course there are other uses for Slaves. In some religions you need a steady stream of them to sacrifice daily to make the Sun go up the next day.


Acquiring Slaves
There are multiple ways to get slaves.

First of all you have the classic way of conquering nearby territories and enslaving part of the population as you sack their cities. This is something that as diverse cultures as amongst others, the Haudenosaunee, Aztec and the Kanem Empire can do from the start. They also get easy access to casus belli to go on slave raiding wars. As you sack a city, a percentage of the population will become slaves and appear in the closest slave market you have, and if none is near enough, then to the closest slave market nearby.

Secondly, we have the Berber States, who engaged in slave raiding from the sea. In Eu4, this was a button you clicked on your ships when they were near a coast that had no slave-raiding-cooldown active. In Project Caesar this ability is a part of the privateering mechanic, in that if you have access to this ability, then your privateers will raid a random coastal location in the area they are in, and take some of the pops as slaves for the closest slave market. This is stopped by having a truce, above 100 opinion, or a good old coastal fortress.

slave_raiding.png

Morocco is one of the countries that can do this from day 1.

Thirdly, you have the Slave Market Building. While it acts as a hub for slave trades, it will also try to enslave pops of non accepted cultures, and different religious groups. This is to simulate how the Delhi Sultanate and others enslaved people in their conquered lands over time.

slave_market.png

It all adds up over time..

Fourthly, you have the possibility to build slave centers in foreign locations that have less power projection than you. This is to simulate part of how the Europeans got their slaves from West Africa to the New World. While a significant part of slaves were bought from other African Kingdoms that were willing to sell slaves taken from their enemies, they were also locally captured by the slavers themselves near their slaving centers. If you wish to fight this in your territories, you need to go to war and forcefully expel them.

Finally, you can trade for slaves. In Project Caesar, slaves exist both as a type of goods and as a type of pop, and they are slightly linked. Buildings can produce slave goods and require slave goods as input. When a slave goods is traded between markets, the game will also move pops in relative sizes to locations that have a demand for slaves.

Thus, if you have buildings or resource gathering operations that can use slaves, they will create a demand for slaves in the market, and if you trade from a market that both produces slave goods and has enough slaves present, the game will move about 200 pops from the slave market each month for each good you trade.

At the start of the game there is the Trans-Saharan trade, where northern african countries import slaves from West Africa, many sold by the Kanem Empire.

Later on, during the Age of Discovery, you will see the triangular trade between Europe, West Africa & Americas, which will reduce the Trans Saharan trade volumes.

There is also another market system, as the Mongol States have access to taking slaves when conquering land, and they created the greatest slave trading network the world has ever seen. Since Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves, the Mongols traded the muslims to the christians and the christians to the muslim countries. The trade links from India goes to central asia as well, as Delhi trades their slaves to other markets, while they get the slaves they require for their mamluk-style armies.



Stay tuned as next week we’ll talk about Great Powers and Hegemonies..
 
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According to Zhao Huafu (1984), the Mongol Empire (Yuan) should have had 10 million slaves, 50% of whom were serfs.
China under the Ming also had slavery, to be clear. It was not a mongol imposition. But yes Yuan probably ought to have a decent chunk of slaves, though like I said maybe a portion of them can be represented as "merely" serfs. Whether you're Yuan or Ming I also imagine most of the slavery would best be represented as being slaves held by buildings operated under the Noble estate rather than being state owned. For the most part, though state slavery ought not to be unheard of especially with like convict labor.
 
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Does getting slave raided give a casus belli against the raider ?

The naval one? you can create one if they got privateers near your coasts-.
 
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Is there something stopping early game Christian nations from building slave markets, or will for example Sweden be able to enslave and sell off the finno-ugric pagans from day one?

We have a few laws in the game that limits slavery.
 
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I am not familiar with how Genoan manned their galleys, but there is ample literature proving Venetian did not used them. They hired payed labor.

Suggestion: (African) Slave center buidlings should be owned by local African Kingdom that can be build in European territory outposts set up along the coast. This way both parties get the share of the profits from this lucrative trade.... maybe only later in the game when Europeans become vastly technologically superior, they can impose the monopoly on the trade and take all the profits for themselves.
 
1 - no
2 - yes
3 - no
4 - its out of the time frame
5 - yes
6 - yes
7 - not sure about your question?
8 - yes, no more slavery
9 - before industrialisation, slavery was not exaclty non-competetive.
10 - we talked about this, and one day we will have ethnic differences on poptype icons.
I believe 7 is in reference to the US. Each state in the US had its own laws with regards to slavery being legal or illegal.
 
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I hope slave raids and capturing slaves from sacked cities will be near ubiquitous in sub-Saharan Africa.

Yes, its very common there.
 
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"Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves"

Obviously it was not working like that, otherwise it was enough for slaves to convert to be free, muslims do not have the right to enslave free Muslims, but they have the right to own Muslim slaves, Mohammed was a slaver and he was not an idiot. Same for christians.
 
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Hordes should definitely have some sort of non-war raid mechanic for acquiring slaves, like the Berbers, and not just limited to sieges.



We had a mechanic similar to it, but it was not good and very micro
 
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Is it possible in the game to have "slave only pops countries", like some colony that revolt or something ? (I was thinking of Haiti when i was tiping this...)
 
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China under the Ming also had slavery, to be clear. It was not a mongol imposition. But yes Yuan probably ought to have a decent chunk of slaves, though like I said maybe a portion of them can be represented as "merely" serfs. Whether you're Yuan or Ming I also imagine most of the slavery would best be represented as being slaves held by buildings operated under the Noble estate rather than being state owned. For the most part, though state slavery ought not to be unheard of especially with like convict labor.
Generally, researchers believe that the slavery in the Ming Dynasty was a continuation of the Mongolian slavery system, although the founders of the Ming Dynasty did not completely abolish slavery, but only limited the number of slaves that officials of all levels could own, and did not allow the creation of new slaves. (Officials' slaves came from the acceptance of Mongolian slave institutions)
Compared to the universal slavery of the Mongol Empire, although slavery existed in the Ming Dynasty, it returned to the 12th century before, when slavery was regarded as a privilege of royal service rather than production.