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Tinto Talks #34 - 23rd of October 2024

Hello and Welcome to another Tinto Talk, where we spill information about our entirely secret unannounced game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about how slavery works in this game.

Slave Pops
One of the six types of pops we have are the slaves. These lack pretty much every right in all countries, and are simply exploited. They are not allowed to move around on their own, they have harsh enough lives that they are basically only keeping the current population levels at best of times, and they have absolutely no income nor any political power. If they get any sort of literacy they are very likely to be rather upset. At the start of the game the usage of slaves is mostly gone from Europe, but it's more prevalent in other parts of the world.


slaves_cairo.png

Part of the slaves in Cairo at the start..

Usage of Slaves
Slaves are primarily used in resource gathering operations, but they can also be used in various buildings. These types of buildings can be categorized into two types of buildings.

First we have the slave-soldier buildings that require slaves to function, and produce manpower or sailors. These include buildings like mamluk or janissary barracks that provide a part of the armies of the Mamluks and Ottomans.

The second category of buildings are the plantations. These are buildings that you can unlock from Age of Discovery advances. There are three types of plantations, for sugar, tobacco and cotton. These are far more productive than the RGO for the same goods, but require slaves to function.

galley_barracks.png

One unique building to get you a lot of sailors.

Of course there are other uses for Slaves. In some religions you need a steady stream of them to sacrifice daily to make the Sun go up the next day.


Acquiring Slaves
There are multiple ways to get slaves.

First of all you have the classic way of conquering nearby territories and enslaving part of the population as you sack their cities. This is something that as diverse cultures as amongst others, the Haudenosaunee, Aztec and the Kanem Empire can do from the start. They also get easy access to casus belli to go on slave raiding wars. As you sack a city, a percentage of the population will become slaves and appear in the closest slave market you have, and if none is near enough, then to the closest slave market nearby.

Secondly, we have the Berber States, who engaged in slave raiding from the sea. In Eu4, this was a button you clicked on your ships when they were near a coast that had no slave-raiding-cooldown active. In Project Caesar this ability is a part of the privateering mechanic, in that if you have access to this ability, then your privateers will raid a random coastal location in the area they are in, and take some of the pops as slaves for the closest slave market. This is stopped by having a truce, above 100 opinion, or a good old coastal fortress.

slave_raiding.png

Morocco is one of the countries that can do this from day 1.

Thirdly, you have the Slave Market Building. While it acts as a hub for slave trades, it will also try to enslave pops of non accepted cultures, and different religious groups. This is to simulate how the Delhi Sultanate and others enslaved people in their conquered lands over time.

slave_market.png

It all adds up over time..

Fourthly, you have the possibility to build slave centers in foreign locations that have less power projection than you. This is to simulate part of how the Europeans got their slaves from West Africa to the New World. While a significant part of slaves were bought from other African Kingdoms that were willing to sell slaves taken from their enemies, they were also locally captured by the slavers themselves near their slaving centers. If you wish to fight this in your territories, you need to go to war and forcefully expel them.

Finally, you can trade for slaves. In Project Caesar, slaves exist both as a type of goods and as a type of pop, and they are slightly linked. Buildings can produce slave goods and require slave goods as input. When a slave goods is traded between markets, the game will also move pops in relative sizes to locations that have a demand for slaves.

Thus, if you have buildings or resource gathering operations that can use slaves, they will create a demand for slaves in the market, and if you trade from a market that both produces slave goods and has enough slaves present, the game will move about 200 pops from the slave market each month for each good you trade.

At the start of the game there is the Trans-Saharan trade, where northern african countries import slaves from West Africa, many sold by the Kanem Empire.

Later on, during the Age of Discovery, you will see the triangular trade between Europe, West Africa & Americas, which will reduce the Trans Saharan trade volumes.

There is also another market system, as the Mongol States have access to taking slaves when conquering land, and they created the greatest slave trading network the world has ever seen. Since Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves, the Mongols traded the muslims to the christians and the christians to the muslim countries. The trade links from India goes to central asia as well, as Delhi trades their slaves to other markets, while they get the slaves they require for their mamluk-style armies.



Stay tuned as next week we’ll talk about Great Powers and Hegemonies..
 
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1 - no
2 - yes
3 - no
4 - its out of the time frame
5 - yes
6 - yes
7 - not sure about your question?
8 - yes, no more slavery
9 - before industrialisation, slavery was not exaclty non-competetive.
10 - we talked about this, and one day we will have ethnic differences on poptype icons.
Why couldnt a slave revolt end in a situation like Haiti? Which is very much in the timeframe and was something that colonial nations were wary of. Haiti broke off from France after a very bloody attempt by France to keep it. I think it would be very interesting to have this. I guess this could be a type of revolution too? Is this covered by that mechanic instead?
 
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Overall, this looks great and a big improvement on previous titles from PDX. I have a few questions:
1. You've said that plantations can only have slaves working in them. Will there be some cheap way to convert plantations into more regular RGOs and vice versa? It wouldn't really make logical sense to have to rebuild a plantation from scratch as a farm.
2. In some reasons, Slaves could be of a very high status, most notably, the Mamluks and Janissaries, but also many of the manchu bannermen were bondsmen/slaves. In such a situation wouldn't it make sense for slaves to have political power and be part of estates?
3. The method described for slaves to be traded/transported from one region to another is a bit unclear/convoluted. Could this be further detailed? It seems to me that having both a slave good and a slave pop might cause confusion.
4. How will the ownership of slaves be modelled? How will the revenues/costs from buying/selling slaves be shown?
 
Yes. There is a reason so many the other states in Mexico went "oh lets ally with these weird spanish invaders, no matter what"
I'm sure they would all be BFFs like England and France were if only they had stuck to demanding tribute and aimed to kill each other in combat instead...
 
Fourthly, you have the possibility to build slave centers in foreign locations that have less power projection than you. This is to simulate part of how the Europeans got their slaves from West Africa to the New World. While a significant part of slaves were bought from other African Kingdoms that were willing to sell slaves taken from their enemies, they were also locally captured by the slavers themselves near their slaving centers. If you wish to fight this in your territories, you need to go to war and forcefully expel them.

I think slave centers should not depend on power projection, but more on good relations with the country you are building in, and/ or paying the ruler for the right to buy slaves. From the book "Unfinished Empire, The Global Expansion of Britain" by John Darwin, it is stated that:

"...their commercial activities depended upon the goodwill of the ruler and could be halted abruptly if they incurred his displeasure. African power thus set the terms for West African contact." P. 42

This was written about the "early" empire of Britain, and was more about the traders in West Africa, not the government of Britain. But for me, this should be the feeling we get when we first start up our empire and begin trading slaves. Africa is far away, with disadvantageous geography (for attackers) and many dangerous diseases, we shoudn't be able to steamrole the entire continent before the 19th-century. And when or if the african ruler gets angry, we should have the option to pay to repair our relations. If they want us out, realisticly we should have few options to fight back.

Perhaps those slave centers should give a huge economic boost, or atleast be noticable enough for the country it's build in, so that there is little reason for them to want to stop selling slaves to europeans. Making the whole thing a little more historical.

But this is just a suggestion.
 
It could potentially be interesting if Slave revolts could lead to Maroon Society of Pops being established.

Some Maroon groups became powerful enough to resist European attempts to re-enslave them.
 
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They can be working in special buildings for admin yes..

You can't ever enslave same cultute pops.
Why can't you enslave same culture pops? What about Kholops in Russia, which were regular russian slaves?

What about serfs, like in Muscovy, where their rights were gradually cut until they were practicall undistinguishable from regular slaves in their "rights".

A person who is not allowed to freely move, is obliged to do some work, not allowed to get any education or land, does not have any particular rights and can be sold, or traded is definitely a slave no matter what you call it.
 
For protecting against Barbary raids nothing was said about the presence of your own fleet, surely if I position my fleet in a sea zone it should protect all the coastal locations and if they attempt to raid it anyway it would start a naval battle. Also for raiding it would be cool if you could both just say go raid this sea or take more control and decide the specific locations to raid.
I'm sure you can try, but catching privateers is not as easy as you make it sound
 
For those who keep mentioning it: serfdom is handled as laws for the peasant estate (things like free movement and the like), not as slavery.
 
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The slave centers mechanic is very ahistorical if it's intended to represent part of how Europeans got their slaves. Europeans rarely captured slaves themselves; the risk of malaria was too great, and the average lifespan for a European merchant in West Africa was less than a year because of malaria.
This is true, there should be private armed bands, mercenary companies that operate and set up markets for Europeans to purchase enslaved people. This was the case is slave trading African states, like Dahomey, in which the slave trade by the 18th century was dominated by private groups, as opposed to a monarch or a European power.
 
Can slaves rise to a position of power and "become" characters like the various ottoman viziers who were janissaries slave soldiers at first or Hurrem sultan who was a slave that became the sultan legal wife?
This would be a great mechanic because this is how slavery was enforced in much of the Islamic and African world. Slave commanders, slave viziers, slave ministers and bureaucrats etc.
 
Will slave populations in some areas grow in size significantly over time on their own, like in the colonies that would become the US South, while constantly decreasing and needing new slaves to be brought in in other areas in order to be maintained in size, like Haiti?
That would probably make the most sense to determine based on local climate. Something like: these provinces have "Yellow Fever" modifier, which kills people of a culture that doesn't have "Yellow Fever [or Tropical Disease] [Partial Immunity/Acclimation]" at an alarming rate. Over time, population without immunity/acclimation living in places with Yellow Fever switch to a new culture that does have Acclimation (i.e., French become Franco-Caribbean). No one wants to live in those places without it (because they probably wouldn't live in those places without it), so you have to send slaves there, preferably ones of cultures that have Partial Immunity and so die slower.

This isn't perfect, because culture is used in place of genetics, but I understand that PDX doesn't want to open the can of worms that are genetic differences between different human ancestral groups.
 
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Will slaves be banned in Venice?

Slavery and trading slaves in repubican territory was banned in 960

How will this work considering the trade and ownership of slaves was illegal while venetians would still gain wealth trading slaves outside republic territories but illegal within?

There were still cases of ownership within the republic of venice but this was frequently an issue in venetian courts where wealthy people were using a slave during the 1300s and a constant complaint to bailifs
 
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Will slaves be banned in Venice?

Slavery and trading slaves in repubican territory was banned in 960

How will this work considering the trade and ownership of slaves was illegal while venetians would still gain wealth trading slaves outside republic territories but illegal within?

There were still cases of ownership within the republic of venice but this was frequently an issue in venetian courts where wealthy people were using a slave during the 1300s and a constant complaint to bailifs
You can still do plenty of trading outside of your country or your country's markets. As long as you have a market presence, you can trade any good from market A to market B.

No reason why the Venetians can't be caught up in the slave trade even with slavery banned back home.
 
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Is the Venetian slave trade somehow modelled in game? It was an important part of their economy before the Ottomans took over and the Iberians began to import people from Africa.

You can still do plenty of trading outside of your country or your country's markets. As long as you have a market presence, you can trade any good from market A to market B.

No reason why the Venetians can't be caught up in the slave trade even with slavery banned back home.

I'd be so impressed if they managed to program anything of the sort, considering it was illegal in venice by this point to own slaves, trade slaves or even build ships, let alone using state assets for the purpose of slave trading within the nation, while still acknowledging that a number of Venetians became hugely wealthy from trading slaves.

I think for me the curiosity is based on the idea that if you're playing as "The republic of Venice" you're playing a nation that is about as anti slavery as a medieval nation gets, with slavery being a frustrating issue in your legal courts, whilst also being weirdly aware that your citizens including some of the people within, or relatives of state officials benefitting from it personally and the role of the law and public debate taking efforts to stop that. With that bringing some wealth into the city, although nowhere near as much as spices, luxury goods, grain etc.

Its kind of a fairly major issue albeit focussed on one specific nation, possibly leading to some potential corruption/stability issues? The constant legal consequences of trading in civil life are why Venice pretty much lost the slave trade monopoly to Genoa and Aragon during the trade wars, even in the eastern mediterranean despite having a much more prominant shipping monopolies in general. I can imagine the same issue does come up as a complication later on as slavery is banned around the world though :)
 
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Hello and Welcome to another Tinto Talk, where we spill information about our entirely secret unannounced game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about how slavery works in this game.

Slave Pops
One of the six types of pops we have are the slaves. These lack pretty much every right in all countries, and are simply exploited. They are not allowed to move around on their own, they have harsh enough lives that they are basically only keeping the current population levels at best of times, and they have absolutely no income nor any political power. If they get any sort of literacy they are very likely to be rather upset. At the start of the game the usage of slaves is mostly gone from Europe, but it's more prevalent in other parts of the world.


View attachment 1205710
Part of the slaves in Cairo at the start..

Usage of Slaves
Slaves are primarily used in resource gathering operations, but they can also be used in various buildings. These types of buildings can be categorized into two types of buildings.

First we have the slave-soldier buildings that require slaves to function, and produce manpower or sailors. These include buildings like mamluk or janissary barracks that provide a part of the armies of the Mamluks and Ottomans.

The second category of buildings are the plantations. These are buildings that you can unlock from Age of Discovery advances. There are three types of plantations, for sugar, tobacco and cotton. These are far more productive than the RGO for the same goods, but require slaves to function.

View attachment 1205711
One unique building to get you a lot of sailors.

Of course there are other uses for Slaves. In some religions you need a steady stream of them to sacrifice daily to make the Sun go up the next day.


Acquiring Slaves
There are multiple ways to get slaves.

First of all you have the classic way of conquering nearby territories and enslaving part of the population as you sack their cities. This is something that as diverse cultures as amongst others, the Haudenosaunee, Aztec and the Kanem Empire can do from the start. They also get easy access to casus belli to go on slave raiding wars. As you sack a city, a percentage of the population will become slaves and appear in the closest slave market you have, and if none is near enough, then to the closest slave market nearby.

Secondly, we have the Berber States, who engaged in slave raiding from the sea. In Eu4, this was a button you clicked on your ships when they were near a coast that had no slave-raiding-cooldown active. In Project Caesar this ability is a part of the privateering mechanic, in that if you have access to this ability, then your privateers will raid a random coastal location in the area they are in, and take some of the pops as slaves for the closest slave market. This is stopped by having a truce, above 100 opinion, or a good old coastal fortress.

View attachment 1205712
Morocco is one of the countries that can do this from day 1.

Thirdly, you have the Slave Market Building. While it acts as a hub for slave trades, it will also try to enslave pops of non accepted cultures, and different religious groups. This is to simulate how the Delhi Sultanate and others enslaved people in their conquered lands over time.

View attachment 1205713
It all adds up over time..

Fourthly, you have the possibility to build slave centers in foreign locations that have less power projection than you. This is to simulate part of how the Europeans got their slaves from West Africa to the New World. While a significant part of slaves were bought from other African Kingdoms that were willing to sell slaves taken from their enemies, they were also locally captured by the slavers themselves near their slaving centers. If you wish to fight this in your territories, you need to go to war and forcefully expel them.

Finally, you can trade for slaves. In Project Caesar, slaves exist both as a type of goods and as a type of pop, and they are slightly linked. Buildings can produce slave goods and require slave goods as input. When a slave goods is traded between markets, the game will also move pops in relative sizes to locations that have a demand for slaves.

Thus, if you have buildings or resource gathering operations that can use slaves, they will create a demand for slaves in the market, and if you trade from a market that both produces slave goods and has enough slaves present, the game will move about 200 pops from the slave market each month for each good you trade.

At the start of the game there is the Trans-Saharan trade, where northern african countries import slaves from West Africa, many sold by the Kanem Empire.

Later on, during the Age of Discovery, you will see the triangular trade between Europe, West Africa & Americas, which will reduce the Trans Saharan trade volumes.

There is also another market system, as the Mongol States have access to taking slaves when conquering land, and they created the greatest slave trading network the world has ever seen. Since Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves, the Mongols traded the muslims to the christians and the christians to the muslim countries. The trade links from India goes to central asia as well, as Delhi trades their slaves to other markets, while they get the slaves they require for their mamluk-style armies.



Stay tuned as next week we’ll talk about Great Powers and Hegemonies..
in poland there were church charities involved in ransoming polish victims of jasyr, will there ever be such a mechanic where the church estate will be able to spend money on ransoming christians. it happened that raids were broken up and prisoners were released before reaching the slave market, in the same way after a victorious battle the opponent's galley slaves were released, will this be reflected in the game mechanics?
 
Mmm not very happy with that to be honest. It was the exception that slaves were on par in quality. In general someone who is their because an owner forces him should have a penality to morale and discipline.
That depends heavily, because the Mamluks, Janissaries, Abeed Al-Bukhari, The Jonow, etc. all were effective warriors that dominated battlefields or supplemented armies, they were professionals and often received more training than regular soldiers and good enough payment, as well as seizing governments, making Kings, being officers and administrators and more.