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Tinto Talks #4 - March 20th, 2024

Welcome to the fourth iteration of Tinto Talks!

Today we’ll give you an overview of the different mechanics of the Government part of the game. There will be development diaries going into much more detail for these later on.

First of all, we have 5 different government types in the game, which determines a fair bit of what type of mechanics you get access to. As an example, a Republic does not have access to royal marriages, and a Steppe Horde has a different view on how war, peace and conquest works compared to other types of countries.

  • Monarchy, which uses Legitimacy
  • Republic, which uses Republican Tradition
  • Theocracy, which uses Devotion
  • Steppe Horde, which Horde Unity
  • Tribe, which uses Tribal Cohesion

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An illustration from our game..

These, together with country rank, government reform, and local flavor gives countries names like “Crown of Aragon,” “Kingdom of Sweden,” “Principality of Wales.” Not all countries are countries that are based on owning locations on a map though; more on that in later development diaries.

Each country also has a ruler, or they may be in a regency, if there are no possible adult heirs.

One of the most defining parts of the government of a country in Project Caesar is the Estates mechanic. This has been one of the core parts of the game, with a full connection between the population and the estates. Keeping the estates satisfied while keeping their powers low is an important part of the gameplay loop. In this game, the Estates are also active entities and will do things on their own if they get enough power.

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Two government reforms, one culture specific and one government specific.

As time passes, different government reforms and reform-slots will be available. They can also be based on tag, culture or religion.

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These are the two available possibilities in the Law 'Language of Pleading' for the country I tested.

Something that is different from a reform is what we call a Law. A Law can have several different policies you can pick from, and several laws have unique policies only available to certain tags, religions, cultures, government types or other factors.

There are some drawbacks to adding new reforms or policies though, as it takes a few years for it to have full effect, depending on your country's administrative efficiency. (Yes, it's a name for something else in another game, but it fits here.)

Regularly, if your government allows it, you can call in a Parliament. If you don’t do it often enough the estates will start to get irritated, but each parliament has issues that need to be resolved, and the estates will have agendas they want done for their support. Of course, you also have options to push through what you want from a parliament, if you are willing to accept the demands of the estate, like changing a particular law.

Another part of the government is the cabinet, which also grows in size as you become more advanced, allowing you to do more things. This is something that can be viewed as a hybrid between EU4 Advisors and the CK2 council actions.

Some of you may remember the domestic policies from EU2 and EU3. In Project Caesar we are bringing the idea back in the form of Societal Values. There are seven that we took from these games, one that was split in two, and we added four new ones, bringing the total to 13 different Societal Values. Societal Values are primarily affected by what other actions you do, like what policies you pick in a law, or what reforms you pick. As with so many other things in our game, this is not an instant action, but a gradual change over time.

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oh look, its eu3!

Next week, we will go into much more detail about estates and how they work.
 
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For the date guys.
View attachment 1098665

So game will start maybe around July 1337

Well, interestingly enough Castille & Portugal are also at war with Morocco & Granada in 1337, while France & England are about to start their 100 years war. So a lot of big nations/tags would be at the start of a war.

I've been wondering what tags/nations would be advertised as a tutorial nations (like Castille, Portugal & Ottomans in EU4) given we're talking about a century earlier.
 
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How will royal marriages work for monarchies? Is it simply a diplomatic modifier like in EU4, or will Project Caesar have actual characters in the royal family, so a royal marriage would actually be pairing up a prince and a princess from the two countries agreeing to it?
I do not like the idea of having to manage a royal family like this. At least to me, this would seem best left in the CK world
 
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Is the map above showing the locations of that region? also just wanting to know but its Location->Area->Province->State right? or do I have it wrong way?
Almost right, it is location->province->area (and for the full thing) ->region->sub continent->continent.
ngl before double checking i also thought there were states but i guess not.
 
Not personally a fan of the new UI. I think its way too bubbly and spacey with it's icons. For example, that language UI could easily be a third of the size that just shows:
Language:
(two buttons) Court Language, Common Language
Then display more info under tooltop rather than directly under.

I just think a lot of space is taken up by nothing, like theres a lot of blank space in each UI element.

The style might look alright, but I like the very decorated EU4 UI with gold ornaments and stuff around the UI.
 
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Hey, idk if anyone's brought this up so far but unless this game plans on going up to 1920 then like

Lake Kopais is missing in Greece (nitpick, I know)
P sure it was larger than the Prespes too, which *are* there in this
 
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I hope this does not mean that we will have mana points in some shape or form as the primary resource in the game? Can you cast some light on this point, please? :)

Mr Andersson addressed this in an earlier Dev diary or comment. There will NOT be mana, but he does not consider EU4 money or CK Piety to be mana.

This is good news in my opinion. Mana was a solution to the restrictions of board games; Project Caesar is leaving board games behind to be a simulation.

Will certain countries that historically had parliaments have a different version of this to other countries or additional features, or will they just have the same parliament that other countries have?

I suspect the answer to this question is going to involve DLC. And that's fine by me; the English Parliament and the Dutch States-General were two of the DLC features that have given me the most fun in EU4.
 
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I do not like the idea of having to manage a royal family like this. At least to me, this would seem best left in the CK world
Imperator Rome has a lite version of this in regards to the ruling family, important families, governors, etc...and I must admit it's my least favourite part of the game. Not a game breaker by any means, still a great game, but I don't care to much having to manage characters.
 
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1337 is interesting in Asia as well. Japan has just entered its Northern and Southern court period, and the beginning of the Ashikaga Shogunate. In India, the Vijayanagara empire was founded just year before. Finally, in the middle-east the dying Ilkhanate is about to shatter to a hundred pieces.
 
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I know this is not the topic today, but will you add natural disasters? I mean volcanic eruptions, seisms, floodings, epidemics... These things had massive repercussions on some countries (just the death plague...), and they were really lacking in EU4...
 
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I have a theory... I think they are not calling it EUV yet (even tho is obvious) because of some marketing reason behind the name... like Imperator Rome wasn't called Europa Universalis: Rome 2... maybe it will be EUV but under another name... Who knows, because not calling it EUV after showing all this is a bit odd...
 
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The real issue with dropping mission trees is how the AI will make strategic decisions. That's really the core purpose of HoI4, NFs, EU4 missions, etc.

IMHO I would still like to have a historical mode where (to give some examples) France mainly colonizes North America rather than South America and where the Dutch VOC focuses on the Malay archipelago rather than the Persian Gulf. That gives us a chance of playing in a vaguely historical 16th century world even if we don't have a 16th century start

The real issue with dropping mission trees is how the AI will make strategic decisions. That's really the core purpose of HoI4, NFs, EU4 missions, etc.

IMHO I would still like to have a historical mode where (to give some examples) France mainly colonizes North America rather than South America and where the Dutch VOC focuses on the Malay archipelago rather than the Persian Gulf. That gives us a chance of playing in a vaguely historical 16th century world even if we don't have a 16th century start date.
I mean I’d imagine something would replace it no? I guess the closest thing would maybe be Vic 3’s journals, though they don’t always force the AI to act historically, nor let the player accomplish more ahistorical goals (I guess there’s the one for France where you can conquer the Rhine and maybe Brazilian naval dominance but I digress)
 
Yes, I imagine the localisation for names is simply done literally word to word, which creates these bad translations. It's particularly jarring when zooming out to see the political map and you see these big nonsensical names around.

I often wonder how aware devs are of this issue that they may have never encountered themselves, and given that most of the people who have do not come to give feedback in English language to these forums.

But now Project Caesar is at that early stage of development where dynamic names can be coded with proper localisation to most languages in mind.
Make Project Caesar non-English localisations good enough! #MPCNELGE

Personally, I don't really have a problem with it. I've been playing mostly in English for a while now. So I haven't seen this problem for a while. But I know some people who aren't efficient enough in English and see these nonsense translations every day. I'm thinking in particular of my brothers.

What's more, it would be nice for me to be able to play in French and not always in English. It's better when I do some AAR or roleplaying for/with my friends.
 
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I'd like to share something I think is important for the future of the game, so even though I know my comment is a bit long, I'd really like you to read it in full.

(I used a translator, I'm sorry if the translation isn't of good quality)

I think we should change the way the war of conquest works, and I'm not talking about the units, I'm talking about the way the war unfolds. I think you should be able to declare war on one or more claims, and that you can, by winning a few key battles, besieging the enemy capital and if the claims are really important, occupy the claimed territories, be able to take what is claimed.

On the other hand, occupying territories should be much more costly and difficult to maintain, but if you occupy territories you haven't claimed, you should naturally annex them at the end of a war, unless you give them back in exchange for something else in the peace treaty.

Speaking of peace treaties, I think they would represent the times much better if we could make offers as well as demands. This has often happened in history, for example, I ask for a territory and in exchange I offer commercial advantages. This would limit the need for long and costly wars.

I also believe that humiliation should not be imposed as part of a peace treaty. Humiliation should be done automatically when we win any war quickly and far less expensively than the opponent, and only if the opponent is our rival or has insulted us recently.

Another system that I think could greatly enhance immersion is a more dynamic claim system. We should be able to claim any border area, but at first the claim is very weak, and nobody takes it seriously, but by investing time and effort we could make it more and more legitimate and we could ask or force other countries to recognize our claim.

I think a similar system would be interesting for legitimizing a territory (by territory I mean a set of locations that have been taken in a recent war). Legitimizing a territory, especially if the claim is weak or non-existent, would be a difficult process, requiringi mportant countries to recognize our right to these territories.

Thanks for reading, I really hope I've given you some good ideas.
YES YOU ARE SPEAKING MY MIND!!!!

Occupying "war goals" for a longer period of time often indicated the outcome of a war in the era, whilst the capital falling almost certainly put an end to it; as so large battles could also be decisive.
I'd add here that primary culture lands should also count far more war score than others - like I couldn't imagine Britain not giving up some shitty colony if someone had occupied their whole island, in fact British government would be no more - in contrast to EU4 mid-to-late game where it's about 23% war score that's not enough for a lot, not to mention the -1000 penalty for not taking any forts in a certain region.

Another related thing I'd love to see is the war&peace system is it being slightly more forgiving, for example allowing "raids" into hostile borderlands.
As a Hungarian, I know kind of these went on for centuries (1400s-1600s) with the Ottomans, they even told us at school about "war-torn years of peace". (It's the same for the whole Balkans but I imagine they were frequent in the middle ages everywhere; for hordes it was the whole lifestlye).
At a raid, you could take population, money and other resources, as well as causing "devastation" - population loss and you know to their borderlands and damaging their morale. When the enemy is leading raiding armies to your lands, you could fight them with your own army without fighting an acrual full-scale war; however raiding could give you a casus belli on the attacker.
 
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johan, will be in game annexing a country or state with its entities? Like when capture a country it will came with its fleet? Like when the ottoman beylik conquered karesid beylik, they built ottoman fleet with karesid fleet entities. Will be This kind of events in the game?
 
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Will there be government reforms that allow certain "mixes" or "hybrids" of government types? I am very sure we are going to see constitutional monarchies, but will we also be able to get settled kingdoms that adopt aspects of horde-organization to compete with warring steppe nomads? Or vice versa hordes that adopt some feudal elements without becoming a "run of the mill" kingdom?
 
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1337 is interesting in Asia as well. Japan has just entered its Northern and Southern court period, and the beginning of the Ashikaga Shogunate. In India, the Vijayanagara empire was founded just year before. Finally, in the middle-east the dying Ilkhanate is about to shatter to a hundred pieces.
Has already just shattered in 1336.

Majapahit also a rising empire, with Gitarja (Civ 6) and Gajah Mada (Civ 5) being in power as queen and prime minister. In 1337 still being on the rise, not at their peak yet.
 
I mean I’d imagine something would replace it no? I guess the closest thing would maybe be Vic 3’s journals, though they don’t always force the AI to act historically, nor let the player accomplish more ahistorical goals (I guess there’s the one for France where you can conquer the Rhine and maybe Brazilian naval dominance but I digress)
From Johan's reply to my post it does sound like something will replace it. It just won't be a clear tree like in EU4. Who knows what it will look like, but I hope they keep it in in someway.
 
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