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Tinto Talks #4 - March 20th, 2024

Welcome to the fourth iteration of Tinto Talks!

Today we’ll give you an overview of the different mechanics of the Government part of the game. There will be development diaries going into much more detail for these later on.

First of all, we have 5 different government types in the game, which determines a fair bit of what type of mechanics you get access to. As an example, a Republic does not have access to royal marriages, and a Steppe Horde has a different view on how war, peace and conquest works compared to other types of countries.

  • Monarchy, which uses Legitimacy
  • Republic, which uses Republican Tradition
  • Theocracy, which uses Devotion
  • Steppe Horde, which Horde Unity
  • Tribe, which uses Tribal Cohesion

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An illustration from our game..

These, together with country rank, government reform, and local flavor gives countries names like “Crown of Aragon,” “Kingdom of Sweden,” “Principality of Wales.” Not all countries are countries that are based on owning locations on a map though; more on that in later development diaries.

Each country also has a ruler, or they may be in a regency, if there are no possible adult heirs.

One of the most defining parts of the government of a country in Project Caesar is the Estates mechanic. This has been one of the core parts of the game, with a full connection between the population and the estates. Keeping the estates satisfied while keeping their powers low is an important part of the gameplay loop. In this game, the Estates are also active entities and will do things on their own if they get enough power.

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Two government reforms, one culture specific and one government specific.

As time passes, different government reforms and reform-slots will be available. They can also be based on tag, culture or religion.

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These are the two available possibilities in the Law 'Language of Pleading' for the country I tested.

Something that is different from a reform is what we call a Law. A Law can have several different policies you can pick from, and several laws have unique policies only available to certain tags, religions, cultures, government types or other factors.

There are some drawbacks to adding new reforms or policies though, as it takes a few years for it to have full effect, depending on your country's administrative efficiency. (Yes, it's a name for something else in another game, but it fits here.)

Regularly, if your government allows it, you can call in a Parliament. If you don’t do it often enough the estates will start to get irritated, but each parliament has issues that need to be resolved, and the estates will have agendas they want done for their support. Of course, you also have options to push through what you want from a parliament, if you are willing to accept the demands of the estate, like changing a particular law.

Another part of the government is the cabinet, which also grows in size as you become more advanced, allowing you to do more things. This is something that can be viewed as a hybrid between EU4 Advisors and the CK2 council actions.

Some of you may remember the domestic policies from EU2 and EU3. In Project Caesar we are bringing the idea back in the form of Societal Values. There are seven that we took from these games, one that was split in two, and we added four new ones, bringing the total to 13 different Societal Values. Societal Values are primarily affected by what other actions you do, like what policies you pick in a law, or what reforms you pick. As with so many other things in our game, this is not an instant action, but a gradual change over time.

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oh look, its eu3!

Next week, we will go into much more detail about estates and how they work.
 
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@dorukdorucu can you confirm?
It was not İzmit (Nicomedia) that was conquered in 1331 but İznik (Nicaea). As far as I know the city was not returned to the Byzantines and stayed in Ottoman hands pretty much forever.

As for Mihaliç, my sources state it was occupied by the Ottomans in 1342, during the civil war between two sons of the late Karesid ruler. It would make no sense for Mihaliç to be conquered in 1336 because the Ottomans specifically went for the Turkish Beyliks after consolidating their gains against Byzantium, and we know that the Karesi Civil War (which allowed the occupation of Mihaliç in the first place) began after 1333 at the earliest (Based on records of Karesid raids near Thessalonica/Selanik) and most likely after 1340, when the rule of Demirhan Bey Karesid was weakened and general social unrest began to take hold.
 
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Ok, so :

- estates are back (yay!)
- government reforms are back (yay!)
- sliders are back(ish) (yay!)
- laws, just... laws! (yay!)
...
Tag specific reforms are back (boo!)

Please consider making generic versions of those tag-specific reforms, so that other countries can experience with them. You could tie them to specific requirements. Societal values would be a good stepping stone for requirements to get those special mechanics.
 
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I think the start date is 1331.

The Ottomans own Izmit, which was conquered sometime between 1331-1338
In 1333 Serbia attacked the Byzantine empire which saw them conquer parts of Greece, which here they do not
In 1332 Epirus controlled Thessaly, which here they do not

Also another important thing is a major event happening in the start date. Well...

In 1331, The first recorded outbreak of the Black Death occurs, in the Chinese province of Hubei.
It's post 1336 because of the Sindh split (which happened after 1336) and Ilkhanate collapse. (-> see https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-dev-diary-3-map.1630234/page-4#post-29476886 for Sindh and the fractured Persia on same map)

Serbia do control the parts of Greece you mention.

In 1337 Epirus did not control Thessaly.
 
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It's not a bad thing if plagues are in the game, London suffered its last major plague in 1665/1666 and let's not forget the impact on the american natives.
The Cocoliztli epidemic and many others in the Spanish Americas were so important, they devastated the native populations. Having epidemics already modelled for the Black Death in Europe at game start would be a great way to benefit from the system.
 
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When we look at the map, we can see that Karasids still exists, which according to sources was conquered by the Ottomans in 1361. Another detail is that the Ottomans conquered and owns province of "Izmit", which happened in 1337. If we look at these details, it is almost certain that the game will take place between 1337-1361. This supports the 1356 start date theory.

edit: Thanks to ValhallArchitect I realized that Gallipoli is in Byzantium's control. Conquest of Gallipoli happened in 1354 so start date should be even earlier.
Look at the borders of Bulgaria and Serbia, 1356 would mean split up Bulgarian Tsardoms (into three, Vidin, Tarnovo and Dobruja) as well as the Serbian Tsardom getting into Macedonia and Northern Greece. Most likely will be 1337
 
1337 confirmed?

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In late game you have so many seats you need to placate that it gets tedious, even if it's fine for the early game.

The seats system of EU4 parliaments was shit. It did not age well.
 
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What do you mean by "culture specific" government? Whose culture?

Is it more like Vic3, where each nation has a set main culture that doesn't change outside of major events?

Or is it more like Imperator, where different cultures live in your nation and you get to decide which one to integrate? Kind of like it worked with the military traditions, which depended upon cultures being present in a certain number and being integrated as well?

I really liked the Imperator system, it was extremely flexible the way it handles cultures. Would love it if this new game took inspiration from that.
 
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Since we more or less know the beginning of the game (the first half of the 14th century), I am even more curious about the end date of the game (I am counting on 1836).
 
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I'd like to say on behalf of everyone: When including the call parliament mechanic, assuming it's meant to be inspired by the English parliament, which had to be called two times a year, include a mechanic which auto-calls the parliament. Perhaps even allow us to set a time interval, like allowing us to call a parliament every X months, where X would be defined by a slider. Depending on the pacing of the game though, I'm assuming it'll be a bit "dumbed down", so you have to call the parliament only every, for example, 5 years, as to not overwhelm the player (of course depending on how much of a player interaction there is with the player). Either way, having a button you have to press thorough all the game on a set time interval just feels tedious unless given the opportunity to automate.
Parliaments are meant to represent every kind of assembly of estates, I think. Those were virtually universal in Europe at the time, Ständeversammlungen in the german principalities, the Reichstag on the level of the Empire itself, the États généraux (Estates General) in France, the Riksdag in Sweden, the Cortes in Spain...
 
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I still think there should be tribal pops for the hordes, first nations and some polities in the subsaharan Africa but it's still good to hear that estates play a big role in the government and there's going to be tribes estate depending on your government type. Can't wait for Not-EUV

Also, as a turkish person I LOVE the detail in Anatolia, Mashriq, and the Balkans. Thanks to 14th century starting date, This region is going to be a Battle Royale lol.
 
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Since you seem to be describing many mechanisms that only indirectly affect your state in this dev diary and previous ones, I was wondering how the AI will be able to deal and use these mechanisms. Certainly a classical opportunistic/mechanical AI can't handle such gameplay. Will there be a Tinto Talks on the AI?
 
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Keeping the estates satisfied while keeping their powers low is an important part of the gameplay loop. In this game, the Estates are also active entities and will do things on their own if they get enough power.
what do you mean with "do things on their own"? Does this mean that estates can give you negative/positive moddifiers in certain things? ( like unrest and extra trade ) or would it also be possible that they can go in revolt (with units or something) or maybe even start a civil war like in vic3?
 
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Since you seem to be describing many mechanisms that only indirectly affect your state in this dev diary and previous ones, I was wondering how the AI will be able to deal and use these mechanisms. Certainly a classical opportunistic/mechanical AI can't handle such gameplay. Will there be a Tinto Talks on the AI?

Multiplayer-only confirmed!
 
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