Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

[APoliticalGuy]

EU5 is bout to have stellaris ETHOS omg this is aswome

 

[Miguelinileugim]

Finally! Commun-alism?

 

[Nomdesnoms]

I get that the point of this reform is just Vínland, but if it's going to have this name "Family Sagas", then the literary part of this tradition is FAR more important to Icelandic society than the Vínland footnote. Some bonuses to writer artist spawnrates and/or literacy would be ideal. If it wouldn't make the UI too cluttered...

Also, the description emphasizes oral tradition, but Grænlendinga Saga and Eirík's Saga Rauða (the two accounts of Vínland) were already written into manuscripts in the 1200s.

I think oral is right, it’s my understanding that while there were certainly manuscripts, the transmission of the sagas was still largely oral up until fairly recently.

 

[Sete]

Sure, if you post a list of other European countries who have a cultural memory of reaching the Americas in 1337 I'll add the same modifier to them

Oh boy I sure hope Portugal will have a bonus fierce desire for independence.

Cause ya know Viriato and the Lusitani that gave the Luso namesake, Vimara Peres, good old Afonso I, D.Joao I, etc...

Since we are talking about cultural memories.

 

[Ahmadmltft]

On a scale of 1 to 10,how different would you say the parliament system of Project Caesar is to EU4's old system?

 

[Shadow Draco]

no. but give me a few reasons why you'd want it.

Force a republic as revolutionary france maybe?

 

[Sete]

The Mary Rose was a 1511 carrack, seemingly not built by portuguese shipbuilders and seemingly not manned by portuguese sailors:

"Nothing like Madre had ever been seen in England - the frame from the beakhead to the stern was 165 feet (50 m) long. The breadth at the broadest deck, was just over 46 feet (14 m) and her draft was 26 feet (7.9 m) at her arrival in Dartmouth. Her several decks; consisted of a main orlop, three main decks, and a forecastle and a spar deck of two floors each. The length of the keel was 100 feet (30 m), the main-mast was 121 feet (37 m), and its circumference at the partners was just over 10 feet (3.0 m). The main-yard was 106 feet (32 m) long"

Hakluyt, Richard (1598). The Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques and Discoveries of the English Nation. p. 570

 

[Nilsisus]

The fact that people from greenland went on missions to America to obtain timber even into the 14th century is backed up by archeological evidence. Why would this type of activity be restricted?

 

[LordThanatos]

The fact that people from greenland went on missions to America to obtain timber even into the 14th century is backed up by archeological evidence. Why would this type of activity be restricted?

I was about to say the same thing. At least I can add a source to help
Wood procurement in Norse Greenland (11th to 15th c. AD)

I cannot see any reasonable world where the Greenlanders can make that voyage, but not explore further, in an alternate history. If their struggling situation can be somehow reversed, they should be able to extend that knowledge - which they already had. Rather this should be limited by their starting situation - which it sounds like it is, from everything that we've been told about the tag.

I think the modifier is perfect - at least so long as the invite settler mechanic is balanced. I imagine it will be a very hard game to actually make use of it, and I'm already looking forward to giving the tag a try - it sounds like a real challenge.

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

The fact that people from greenland went on missions to America to obtain timber even into the 14th century is backed up by archeological evidence. Why would this type of activity be restricted?

It wouldn't be. Just give it knowledge of the market area somehow at gamestart.

But going from that to giving it permission to settle and explore beyond? Why would this type of activity be allowed? By that logic, any kind of market activity anywhere in the world over water would entitle rights to exploration and colonisation, regardless of geopolitical, demographic and economic circunstances. Even the Iberians stopped exploring further when they got access to all the markets they wanted.

So this is just yet another gamestart circunstance that can be much more accurately modeled without a colonial/exploration benefit.

 

[Davincie]

Love this Johan! Thank you!

Out of curiousity, is there an equivalent "National Ideas" in Project Caesar, or is this the main mechanism through which you'll give countries unique modifiers?

Secondly, if you had to put it in percentage terms, on release what amount of national flavour do you think PC will have? 20-30% or something closer to 60-70, or more?

Thank you for your time.

Dont quote me on this, but I think the national idea equivalent are the nation specific advancements.

 

[Zerodv]

"Nothing like Madre had ever been seen in England - the frame from the beakhead to the stern was 165 feet (50 m) long. The breadth at the broadest deck, was just over 46 feet (14 m) and her draft was 26 feet (7.9 m) at her arrival in Dartmouth. Her several decks; consisted of a main orlop, three main decks, and a forecastle and a spar deck of two floors each. The length of the keel was 100 feet (30 m), the main-mast was 121 feet (37 m), and its circumference at the partners was just over 10 feet (3.0 m). The main-yard was 106 feet (32 m) long"

Hakluyt, Richard (1598). The Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques and Discoveries of the English Nation. p. 570

Ok why is this specific ship vital here? Can anyone just provide a source for the original claim being made instead of just shifting the goal post to specific ship designs and then specific ships?

 

[Sete]

One thing that annoys me in this whole discourse.

Iceland Sagas: Implies that it was an heroic endeavour, a man over nature feat.

Iberians: They were in the right place.

Its just so demeaning. Implying they have no agency and are just reacting to the world around them and doing things by chance and dumb luck, their achievements are never theirs like on the Sagas, but just whims of circumstance.

You see the same thing with the "Fall of Constatinopole caused the Portuguese Exploration" myth. Again it robs a whole people of their agency and effort.

Please stop with this.

I don't see any issue with the bonus to colonization. It's a game and it will have cultural references for the flavour.

That one makes sense. In 1337 they won't have the technology or know how to reach brazil, but if a player wants to invest on the colonization game it has that "cultural bonus" for a what if.

Same thing with my beloved Portugal.

Portugal didn't have that much of exploration culture in 1337 because it was previously engaged on a reconquista and fights for self determination. It's starting bonus should reflect that.

 

[Sete]

Ok why is this specific ship vital here? Can anyone just provide a source for the original claim being made instead of just shifting the goal post to specific ship designs and then specific ships?

Because it's evidence of how the ships were differently built as requested.

The units of measurement varied between Spanish and Portuguese shipbuilders. The Spanish used the “codo normal” until c. 1590 (0,5573 m) and from 1590 onwards the codo de ribera (0,5747 m) as well as the Spanish “vara” (0,8359 m), the “palmo” (0,209 m), the “dedo” (0,0174 m), the “Pie de Burgos” (0,2786 m) and the “pulgada” (0,0232 m). The Portuguese used the “rumo” (1,67 m), the “palmo de goa” (0,278) and the “palmo normal” (0,209 m). (27) According to Oliveira, in Portuguese naus of more than 300 tons “the frames are one goa palm square, that is, one palm to each face” (21) that is, c. 28 cm moulded and sided for floors and futtocks. According to an anonymous Spanish author, probably Pedro Lopes de Soto (c. 1630), the Spanish ships of the same tonnage used half of codo (29 cm) in their floors, but only a third of codo (19 cm) in the second futtocks (28).

Also according to Oliveira, for a nau with a keel length up to 15 rumos there was one single master frame; between 15 to 18 rumos, two master frames; from 18 rumos, three master frames (29). Although this characteristic is not unique to Portuguese shipbuilding, being found, for instance in 18th century French men o’war (30) it is not referred to in Spanish shipbuilding, IIRC.

The sternpost “couce de popa” does not scarf with the keel . The sternpost heel, in Portuguese shipbuilding, was usually done with a single piece of wood that scarfed with the keel in “elbow-fashion” (16), curved down to the point where the skeg juts out.

The existence of a “dente” or deck beam teeth, known only in theory up to now, seems to be unique to Portuguese shipbuilding tradition. The “dente”, as defined by Richard Barker, is an integral corbet marked on templates on the second futtock, and cut on the inside of the frame timbers at regular intervals, corresponding to the decks. The beam shelves would rest on these corbels, or “teeth”, which thus served as a major point of alignment for the frames, too (22).

Portuguese tradition emphasises the use of cork oak (Quercus suber) as the key material for the ships of discoveries, although apparently practice does point to some use of some other wood species such as European oak from Poland and the Low Countries for the keel and frames of Portuguese ships (31).

The presence of Roman numerals on the – probably – pre-assembled frames, at the surfaces facing the bow. The numerals might directly correlate with the specific method for the system of design of the hull configuration, well known through the classical sources of Portuguese naval architecture, above cited (19). This kind of inscription was only found on the Cais do Sodre and Culip IV (29) wrecks, IIRC.

Caulking with thin sheets of lead, rolled up, placed during the assembly of the hull planking, as system observed at Boudeuse Cay wreck (8) and São Julião da Barra 2 (19). For one who has dived the SJB 2, these lead rolls were the most noticeable feature of the site (besides the hull, that is…)

 

[Zerodv]

Because it's evidence of how the ships were differently built as requested.

The units of measurement varied between Spanish and Portuguese shipbuilders. The Spanish used the “codo normal” until c. 1590 (0,5573 m) and from 1590 onwards the codo de ribera (0,5747 m) as well as the Spanish “vara” (0,8359 m), the “palmo” (0,209 m), the “dedo” (0,0174 m), the “Pie de Burgos” (0,2786 m) and the “pulgada” (0,0232 m). The Portuguese used the “rumo” (1,67 m), the “palmo de goa” (0,278) and the “palmo normal” (0,209 m). (27) According to Oliveira, in Portuguese naus of more than 300 tons “the frames are one goa palm square, that is, one palm to each face” (21) that is, c. 28 cm moulded and sided for floors and futtocks. According to an anonymous Spanish author, probably Pedro Lopes de Soto (c. 1630), the Spanish ships of the same tonnage used half of codo (29 cm) in their floors, but only a third of codo (19 cm) in the second futtocks (28).

Also according to Oliveira, for a nau with a keel length up to 15 rumos there was one single master frame; between 15 to 18 rumos, two master frames; from 18 rumos, three master frames (29). Although this characteristic is not unique to Portuguese shipbuilding, being found, for instance in 18th century French men o’war (30) it is not referred to in Spanish shipbuilding, IIRC.

The sternpost “couce de popa” does not scarf with the keel . The sternpost heel, in Portuguese shipbuilding, was usually done with a single piece of wood that scarfed with the keel in “elbow-fashion” (16), curved down to the point where the skeg juts out.

The existence of a “dente” or deck beam teeth, known only in theory up to now, seems to be unique to Portuguese shipbuilding tradition. The “dente”, as defined by Richard Barker, is an integral corbet marked on templates on the second futtock, and cut on the inside of the frame timbers at regular intervals, corresponding to the decks. The beam shelves would rest on these corbels, or “teeth”, which thus served as a major point of alignment for the frames, too (22).

Portuguese tradition emphasises the use of cork oak (Quercus suber) as the key material for the ships of discoveries, although apparently practice does point to some use of some other wood species such as European oak from Poland and the Low Countries for the keel and frames of Portuguese ships (31).

The presence of Roman numerals on the – probably – pre-assembled frames, at the surfaces facing the bow. The numerals might directly correlate with the specific method for the system of design of the hull configuration, well known through the classical sources of Portuguese naval architecture, above cited (19). This kind of inscription was only found on the Cais do Sodre and Culip IV (29) wrecks, IIRC.

Caulking with thin sheets of lead, rolled up, placed during the assembly of the hull planking, as system observed at Boudeuse Cay wreck (8) and São Julião da Barra 2 (19). For one who has dived the SJB 2, these lead rolls were the most noticeable feature of the site (besides the hull, that is…)

Ok, none of this indicates that Iberians were the only one that had ocean going ships for an entire century

 

[Mrkew]

There was a lot of things written on the icelandic government reform, so let me just say that my first thought was that for example England can switch to icelandic primary culture as long as they get a ruler of icelandic culture. I can see people doing that a lot if it's possible.

 

[Rule Britannia]

I can't guarantee that it will be your dreams, but its a good system.

I hope you will also take the time next week to explain how you are going to represent the English/British parliamentary system.

 

[Sete]

Ok, none of this indicates that Iberians were the only one that had ocean going ships for an entire century

Nor did I say that.
But the Caravel and the Carrack were developed in Portugal.

That much is universally accepted.
Don't forget that the Portuguese just mixed and improved existing concept to adjust to their needs. When talking about caravels and carracks it's the most advanced form they reached in the Age of Discovery. This does not imply other countries did not have ships or did not sail, but they would be built with different purposes in mind.

For example Portuguese Carracks could reach 1000 tons to make the most of a journey to India.

The Dutch developed the flyut for their own purposes. (Which is a design I love)

I was just pointing to the different shipbuilding techniques. And I'm not even going into nomenclature which like in swords is a mess. Back in the day a Nau was a Cargo ship. And they called Naus to what these days you all a cog in Portugal.

 

[Atromb]

Do you have any source on the topic? Because I see no evidence that the Iberians had a trade secrets on any kind of ship for a century.

The Mary Rose was a 1511 carrack, seemingly not built by portuguese shipbuilders and seemingly not manned by portuguese sailors:

Naming names - The Mary Rose

We don’t have a crew manifest for the Mary Rose, but we do have a few names we can attribute to the crew of Henry VIII's favourite ship...

maryrose.org

"Between1416 and 1422 six royal English ships were rigged witha second mast, according to the Genoese model, in which alsothe «flaill" – probably a Spanish windlass – was introduced toease the hoisting of the mainsail117. But soon thereafter, a thirdmast was added. The earliest evidence indicates a date arounda period of 1420-1436 in England118, not long after the earliestknown illustration of a three-masted vessel from a Catalandocument of 1406119."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309677921_Bayonese_cogs_Genoese_carracks_English_dromons_and_Iberian_carvels_Tracing_technology_transfer_in_medieval_Atlantic_shipbuilding

Speed of technological transmission seems 2-4 times faster than you seem to argue for, maybe your argument work in the context of rolling designs but clearly any specific design wasn't hard to adopt and only needed foreign expertise for a generation or two at most, not one entire century.

Fair enough, perhaps the naval technological spread between England and Iberia was of only 50 years, and even shorter for France, 100 was perhaps an exageration. Still, based on the paper I have no reason to believe England would have been able to build and operate an exploration fleet comparable to that of Columbus first voyage until at least the 1510s.
Furthermore this paper basically proves that the caravel would have always appeared in Castile and Portugal. As it says, the caravel is the result of the intermixing of the atlantic and the mediterranean shipbuilding traditions, in particular the basque tradition with the genoese-catalan one, both of which were present in both Castile and Portugal, with some north african inspirations. It feels perfectly natural that the caravel would necesarily appear in Iberia then, with later models being developed as portuguese exploratory voyages demanded better and better ships.

 

[Rule Britannia]

Will the order of the Tinto Flavor posts follow the same as the maps or will it be more random?