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Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk more about our upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will go into details about the government reforms and look into some specific ones that you may use or not.

Representing everything from ancient traditions to progressive amendments, Government Reforms outline the shape of governance in a country. Each one is unique, but they often give powerful trade-offs or open up unique play styles.

At the start of the game, countries are only allowed 2 government reforms, but in every Age there is at least one advance that unlocks another slot for reforms. Some specific reforms also add another slot, so they are essentially “free” for that country. On average in the final Age of the game, a country may have 7 or 8 reforms.

Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…

french_estates.png
France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?



Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.



Common Reforms
Here are some examples of early government reforms that many nations have access to from the start.

Religious Tolerance
For when your country is populated by people who practice different beliefs and confessions. Therefore, it would be prudent to govern in a tolerant manner with them, ensuring their support for the government.

religious_tolerance.png

It will make your country a bit more communal though..

Diplomatic Traditions
From time immemorial our people have favored the word above the sword, giving us the ability to forge lasting relationships with our allies and friends and a reputation as honest and loyal.

diplomatic_traditions.png

For certain types of countries, this is rather important..


Military Order
This is a major reform that catholic theocracies have access to. It is one of the types of reforms that truly defines a country.

The Military Orders were created in the Middle Ages as a militant body of the Catholic Church. Its members are both warriors and monks who take religious vows and are destined to defend and expand Christianity.

military_order.png

Military Sponsorships are vitally important to a Holy Order!



Unique Government Reforms
So let's take a look at some of the more unique government reforms that we have in the game right now.

Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

family_sagas.png

If only they had the population to exploit it..

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

three_departments.png

If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..

Magna Carta
This is a unique reform that England starts with, and is also possible for any country with the English primary culture, or if their overlord has this reform.

The 'Great Charter' is a constitutional law that distributes power away from the monarch and towards the barons. First signed in 1215, it is also one of the earliest documents to enshrine the idea of civil liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, and protection against illegal imprisonment.

magna_carta.png

It gives some power to the nobility, and shapes the country towards certain ideals.


Stay tuned, as next week we will look into all the different types of Parliaments, and how you interact with them...
 
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Not to mention that it's not the same thing to send your fleets sailing across the huge and empty middle of the Atlantic Oceans, and sending it from Iceland to Greenland to modern Canada. While the northern seas definitely aren't exactly safe, what Iberians pulled off was a lot more impressive AND it was a big step in sailing other huge empty oceans.

Vinland and Columbus' Expeditions only share the destination, NOTHING else was the same. They should not be equalized.

There is no way for Iceland to get to the carribean and colonize it within the first few centuries..
 
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Also not a fan of the Family Sagas reform. Even though they may lack the population for large colonization efforts, it just seems like it'll result in a level of exploration and colonization by Iceland culture countries in every campaign that simply didn't happen historically in the game's period. Not saying that they didn't have any explorers, but let's be honest, most of the exploration of the world in the Early Modern Age was done by Iberians or those employed by the Iberians, and then later the English, Dutch, and French. Why does the Icelandic culture have such significant bonuses that will at least put them on par with those countries, if not much better?

a single exploration costs money which iceland can't afford in 1337. not to mention what greenland can. If you want to do it, you need to improve before..
 
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With all due respect, then let them follow the relevant technological paths like everyone else. My entire point is that they are far from the only European people, or world people for that matter, that can claim to have a history of ocean-hopping. You can ask the Bretons and their cousins in northern Galicia all about it. They didn't have much else left to run into when being pushed out of their lands but the "western seas". The difference is that they headed south, not northwest.

I repeat, the only benefit I would find acceptable, is some kind of advantange in colonising "Artic" colonies. And even then, only hygienic. But not a full blown, generalised, exploration and settling bonus.
The Breton example is just not comparable, in terms of distance, climate, knowledge of the lands involved and the difference between a single migration and 3-4 centuries of contact.

The bonus is only generalized insofar as you can expand Iceland fast enough in the first 50-100 years before other Atlantic powers get the ability to explore. If you think PC will be a game where Iceland can expand into Portugal faster than Portugal can start exploring itself, I think we have a bigger issue in our hands.
 
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The Breton example is just not comparable, in terms of distance, climate, knowledge of the lands involved and the difference between a single migration and 3-4 centuries of contact.

The bonus is only generalized insofar as you can expand Iceland fast enough in the first 50-100 years before other Atlantic powers get the ability to explore. If you think PC will be a game where Iceland can expand into Portugal faster than Portugal can start exploring itself, I think we have a bigger issue in our hands.

Again, if it's a matter of knowledge of climate, then give them an hygienic modifier for Artic lands. Much more accurate.

But dont seriously argue to me that they should get a bonus that would apply just as well in Cuba and the Amazon River, or any of their exploration areas. Cause that's how you get e-meme-pires.
 
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Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.
This system was used by Vietnam, Jurchen, and others as well. It should be tied to Sinicization society value (which you mentioned previously) instead.
 
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Again, if it's a matter of knowledge of climate, then give them an hygienic bonus for Artic lands.

But dont seriously argue to me that they should get a bonus that would apply just as well in Cuba and the Amazon River, or any of their exploration areas.
But the "bonus" is the ability to explore, an ability they are limited to use where they start in which is Artic and cold oceans. As I said if Iceland can just conquest hop like a CK3 Viking and then just replace other European states with themselves and then take full advantage of the 50-100 yearly early colonization ability then that's the issue, not the colonization ability in of itself.

You want to put a guard rail to a reform that might not even need it, we don't know yet
 
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Not to mention that it's not the same thing to send your fleets sailing across the huge and empty middle of the Atlantic Oceans, and sending it from Iceland to Greenland to modern Canada. While the northern seas definitely aren't exactly safe, what Iberians pulled off was a lot more impressive AND it was a big step in sailing other huge empty oceans.

Vinland and Columbus' Expeditions only share the destination, NOTHING else was the same. They should not be equalized.
Ever sailed that far up North the Atlantic, ever experienced the effects the Icelandic low would have on that journey. If you did and knew you would want the family saga bonuses to be doubled.
 
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A couple of suggestions to make these feel a little less like modifier shopping, and more like a tradeoff that is a real strategic choice:
  1. Make each reform cost a small amount of stability
  2. Make each reform have some small realistic negative component (i.e. religious tolerance should annoy the clergy a little, as it curtails their power)

An unrelated but basic point on UI: remove the double digit decimal places. They offer new really value, and clutter up the screen.
 
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Why, if their colonial efforts failed? Its not like Portugal was a massive population nexus, either.

If it really IS a matter of knowledge of how to colonise and explore, that is.
The reform just seems to unlock exploration from the start of the game for them doesn't seem to give any particular bonuses to it, I would guess some kind of tech would unlock exploration for the iberian kingdoms in the renaissance. The caravel probably is also probably some kind of unique iberian tech from the age of discovery that boosts exploration and high seas travel.
 
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But the "bonus" is the ability to explore, an ability they are limited to use where they start in which is Artic and cold oceans. As I said if Iceland can just conquest hop like a CK3 Viking and then just replace other European states with themselves and then take full advantage of the 50-100 yearly early colonization ability then that's the issue, not the colonization ability in of itself.

You want to put a guard rail to a reform that might not even need it, we don't know yet
It's not a guard rail when it's limiting a bonus they are getting over everyone else, is it? It's just being accurate about what their real advantage here is. That is ALL I am arguing for here.
 
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