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Tinto Talks #42 - 18th of December 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesday where we give you information about our upcoming super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will be talking about the disaster system, which has been present in different forms in recent GSG games from Paradox.

Disasters
There are two major differences between a disaster and a situation. The first is that a disaster is almost always negative, and secondly a disaster is always for a specific country. While multiple situations can be active and involving a country at the same time, only a single disaster can happen at the same time.

There are also two categories of disasters. The specific historical narratives, and the generic ones that can happen to anyone under the right circumstances.

Disasters in Project Caesar are not just a modifier applied to the country, and some events triggering until you fulfill the winning conditions, but you also get unique actions you can do to affect the disaster.

Let's start looking at some common more generic disasters.

Court and Country
Resistance to the growing centralization in our country has culminated in a period of general crisis and conflict between Court and Country. Depending on how we handle this time of crisis we might come out of it a stronger country than before.

This disaster can happen to any country with strong Absolutism or Crown Power in the Age of Absolutism or Age of Revolution.

court_and_country.png

The Nobility has taken the biggest offence to this plan

As you can see above here the UI for this disaster shows your current crown power, and the power of your estates, while also showing the rebel closest to starting a civil war. It also lists the current actions you have in the disaster. Here we cannot rein in the Nobility, as they are too strong already.

Two of the icons above have special tooltips that are useful for you as well.

end_condition.png

You have to endure it for at least a decade..

advice.png

In case you don’t know how to increase crown power..


Religious Turmoil
religious_turmoil.png


Despite the country's efforts to mediate between the different religious groups in our nation, conflicts have been erupting on a regular basis. The situation has worsened and without drastic measures, we will soon be engulfed in a religious civil war.

This disaster can occur during the Age of Reformation for any Catholic country or any country following any Protestant religion, if they have a low enough religious unity and a weak clergy estate.

To get out of this disaster there are multiple ways: get religious unity higher; get the power of the clergy much higher as a spiritualist; or go full humanist, while restoring stability.

While this disaster is happening, there will be a lot of conflict from religious minorities in the country.



If we look into some of the country specific ones, we have a few here, and we don’t want to spoil them all..

The Rise of Savonarola
savonarola.png


An upstart preacher has started to spread his apocalyptic message, advocating for repentance and reform. His message is causing quite a stir among the population, and it's for sure a sign of changing times.

This is a disaster that is likely to happen to Florence in the last decades of the 15th century, if they are a Catholic republic.

To get out of this disaster you either have to become a Theocracy or Savonarola will have to die.


War of the Roses
war_of_the_roses.png


Two junior branches of the House of Plantagenet, the House of Lancaster and the House of York, both claim to be the rightful heir to the throne of England. Sporadic fights between their supporters have already broken out in a number of provinces around the country. Their heraldic symbols, a red rose and a white rose, have already become synonymous with the conflict now commonly known as the War of the Roses.

This is a specific disaster for England which can happen during the 15th century if the ruling dynasty is Plantagenet, and some specific historical events have happened. It will allow you to side with either York or Lancaster as it will build up to a civil war for the throne.



So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster? Post your suggestions here..

Now, you either get a Christmas present next Wednesday, or you get a lump of coal…
 
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A minor problem is that they are both a bit small for a situation (compared to the likes of, for example, the Black Plague or the Fall of Yüán), but too international for a disaster; though given that similarly small events like the Hussite Wars or the Hundred-Year War are also rather restricted geographically to one or two regions, so probably not out of the scope.
I don't necessarily think scale should be a factor anyways, beyond a minimal requirement for internationality. Situations seem more like a vehicle to deliver narrative content and regional flavor, and these events fit this description like a hand in glove.
 
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Regarding suggestions of disasters, I have some ideas:
1) Time of Troubles, a dynastic crisis in Russia after the death of Ivan IV and his son Feodor, when numerous claimants claimed to be the survived son of Ivan, Dmitry. It's also caused a war with Poland/Commonwealth.
2) Khmelnytsky Uprising, basically a war of cossacks and Russia against Poland (I do hope cossacks can have their country with their unique government, they were pretty like military state but with territories and military camps, wooden fortresses).
3) Maybe Sengoku should be a disaster? Technically daimyos didn't claim their independency and just fought each other inside Japan's borders. It can be considered a disaster of emperor's court/shogun, so yeah, it's a big civil war but way more complicated.
 
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I guess I can give an idea for Serbia if it becomes an Empire. The Fall of the Serbian Empire could be a situation or disaster up to you, but one that can be avoided of course. The problem is how to incorporate that into the game since the Empire fractured into many pieces including Moravian Serbia (Hrebeljanović dynasty), Zeta Lordship (Balsić dynasty), Prilep Lordship (Mrnjavčević dynasty), Domain of the Dejanović family (Dragaš dynasty), Branković district (Branković dynasty) and Altomanović district (Altomanović dynasty). This might be too many tags to present on the map so perhaps a different approach is necessary, either way, that's my idea for kind of an early game disaster.
 
Our disasters are usually a bit more interactive than those of EUIV, as they have usually some more actions to do, besides killing rebels and getting random events.
Are they also easier to encounter / harder to avoid ? Because in EU4 apart from the C & C which you HAD to try and manually enforce for "optimal play" TM, I barely had one.
 
I'll suggest "Time of Turmoil" for Russia. It will trigger if the line of Rurikovich will end and will have events that would either put a regent as a ruler or "resurrected" heirs of the throne (see False Dmitris) and by the end of it, it will put a new ruling dynasty (which irl was when Romanovs took over)
 
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Noted, do you have a good ref to follow for circa 1400?

Just to add to the great examples given by @Aquila SPQR and @PonuryWojtek, I attached a part of the publication by AGAD (Central Archives of Historical Records). On page 99 (18) you have the Royal Seal of Casimir the Great, used during 1333-1370, in a better quality.

Seems like a reasonable choice for point of reference given the period.

Edit: For some reason "Attach files" doesn't seem to work, so it should be here:
http://agad.gov.pl/pieczecie.pdf
 
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Both marinids and hafsids should get early game disasters. The Hafsid one should split their country in two (and probably free all their vassals) and the marinids one should cause a civil war and allow tlemecen to become independent again (historically speaking the marinids 'fully annexed' tlemecen in their starting war like a decade after the start).
 
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Is the American Revolution a Disaster from the perspective of a GB player? Or is that just a generic "Colonial Independence" Disaster that might happen to a GB player?
There's a situation for Colonial Revolutions, and we aim to have some specific events and flavor for the US Independence.
 
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The king looks like something from Steam's new & trending tab.

The screen would be perfectly fine without the inclusion of the portrait too.
 
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Couple of ideas for Polish situations or disasters:

Polish-Teutonic Wars - situation from 1337 until one side 'wins'
This could remove the issue of portraying the years long ceasefire as ongoing war by introducing a wider situation with some events facilitating portrayal of Treaty of Kalisz 1343. Poland would 'win' by capturing Pomerelia and Prussia, Teutons would 'win' by conquering parts of northern Poland and Lithuania, tie could be introduced as a IRL outcome of Poland getting Pomerelia and Warmia while rest of Prussia became Polish secular fief. Some other goals for involved sides could include spread of religion, swapping territories or convincing regional allies.

The 'insert Cossack leader name' Uprising - disaster(s) or situation between 1600-1800
Disaster that could fire for anyone controlling the Wild Fields and not allowing Cossacks to participate in parliament and/or not tolerating their religion or culture. It could repeat or perhaps only one of them be turned into a situation involving regional powers from Russia, Poland and Balkans (IRL: Poland-Lithuania, Russia and Ottomans). Those involved could ferment unrest among Cossacks or Tatars, have event about raiding each other territories. Disaster/situation could be ended by either cracking down on Cossacks or giving them more rights, in case of situation all involved majors must solve this domestically to end the whole situation.

First Free Election - disaster after 1550
When current dynasty has now heir and king dies the disaster starts, it ends when country has new king and is at peace. Player has option to look for illegitimate heirs, invite dynasty members from royal marriages or invite monarchs from prestigious powers. Based on royal marriages, alliances and prestige game could perhaps give player four choices. One of them can be chosen as king while other countries will get casus belli for personal union with possibility of some nobles rising in revolt to aid them. Disaster would end fully when the chosen king is firmly on the throne and all claimants were defeated or never tried to claim the throne.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesday where we give you information about our upcoming super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will be talking about the disaster system, which has been present in different forms in recent GSG games from Paradox.

Disasters
There are two major differences between a disaster and a situation. The first is that a disaster is almost always negative, and secondly a disaster is always for a specific country. While multiple situations can be active and involving a country at the same time, only a single disaster can happen at the same time.

There are also two categories of disasters. The specific historical narratives, and the generic ones that can happen to anyone under the right circumstances.

Disasters in Project Caesar are not just a modifier applied to the country, and some events triggering until you fulfill the winning conditions, but you also get unique actions you can do to affect the disaster.

Let's start looking at some common more generic disasters.

Court and Country
Resistance to the growing centralization in our country has culminated in a period of general crisis and conflict between Court and Country. Depending on how we handle this time of crisis we might come out of it a stronger country than before.

This disaster can happen to any country with strong Absolutism or Crown Power in the Age of Absolutism or Age of Revolution.

View attachment 1232750
The Nobility has taken the biggest offence to this plan

As you can see above here the UI for this disaster shows your current crown power, and the power of your estates, while also showing the rebel closest to starting a civil war. It also lists the current actions you have in the disaster. Here we cannot rein in the Nobility, as they are too strong already.

Two of the icons above have special tooltips that are useful for you as well.

View attachment 1232749
You have to endure it for at least a decade..

View attachment 1232748
In case you don’t know how to increase crown power..


Religious TurmoilView attachment 1232747

Despite the country's efforts to mediate between the different religious groups in our nation, conflicts have been erupting on a regular basis. The situation has worsened and without drastic measures, we will soon be engulfed in a religious civil war.

This disaster can occur during the Age of Reformation for any Catholic country or any country following any Protestant religion, if they have a low enough religious unity and a weak clergy estate.

To get out of this disaster there are multiple ways: get religious unity higher; get the power of the clergy much higher as a spiritualist; or go full humanist, while restoring stability.

While this disaster is happening, there will be a lot of conflict from religious minorities in the country.



If we look into some of the country specific ones, we have a few here, and we don’t want to spoil them all..

The Rise of Savonarola
View attachment 1232746

An upstart preacher has started to spread his apocalyptic message, advocating for repentance and reform. His message is causing quite a stir among the population, and it's for sure a sign of changing times.

This is a disaster that is likely to happen to Florence in the last decades of the 15th century, if they are a Catholic republic.

To get out of this disaster you either have to become a Theocracy or Savonarola will have to die.


War of the Roses
View attachment 1232745

Two junior branches of the House of Plantagenet, the House of Lancaster and the House of York, both claim to be the rightful heir to the throne of England. Sporadic fights between their supporters have already broken out in a number of provinces around the country. Their heraldic symbols, a red rose and a white rose, have already become synonymous with the conflict now commonly known as the War of the Roses.

This is a specific disaster for England which can happen during the 15th century if the ruling dynasty is Plantagenet, and some specific historical events have happened. It will allow you to side with either York or Lancaster as it will build up to a civil war for the throne.



So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster? Post your suggestions here..

Now, you either get a Christmas present next Wednesday, or you get a lump of coal…

Maybe a stupid idea, or maybe just too late i the game, but maybe partitions of poland could be a disaster that can happen from the age of absolutism if you have strong sejm low absolutism and border 3 christian Gps (although thats probably too rare since well prussia and even austria weren't really global powers just european one and probably that late in the game poland would probably need to border france mughals and Qing or somethig XD but then the christian thing doesn't make sense) so maybe specifically strong austria prussia and russia. You could have events about foreign bribes and you could either endup as a russian pupet border state (irl endgoal of russia) be slowly split (like irl) or reform (3rd may constitution but actually surviving the war, also just wanna say "War in the defence of constitution" is such a cool name) although that would probably need to a situation since the whole multiple nations. The other situation I can think of is polish teutonic conflicts as from the start date till probably the death of Jagiełło nearly 100 years later there were a lot of legal battles, aliances switched often based on the rulings of court, often involving papal state (during the 1410-11 war hungary was an ally of teutons, by 1414 Jagiełło and Sigismund were buddies and Polish king hoped that the Hungarian king will rule in his favour just for the king of bohemia to die in 1429 and sigismund wanting support of german princes to rule in the orders favour, so poland started to think about the option of accepting the Hussite offer of making Jagiełło the king of Bohemia just so for everything to change again after another war with teutons and Sigismunt became an ally to Jagiełło) not to count the matters of silesia or lithuania. The former was agreed (technically) by Casimir the great to be a part of bohemia yet by 1420's Sigismund promised Jagiełło silesia if he married his daughter. And Lithuania, it wasn't really an ally till Jadwiga married Jagiełło and even after that, brothers of Jagiełło gave him a shit ton of problems (first of all sorry for using polish names for this) Witold at first wanted parts of lithuania that he should get after their dads death allied woth teutons, then switched sides and became duke of lithuania (under Jagiełło the king of poland) then even became grand duke of lithuania (still under Jagiełło) and was cool with him in 1410 but then was offerd a crown by Sigismund then he died in 1430 just so for Jagiełło to choose another brother as a grand duke without talking about it with nobles (against any treaty between poland and lithuania) and using turmoil in podolia he allied themselfs with teutons and went to war with Jagiełło just to fell to a coup and be replaced with other brother so by 1432 situation was finally settled. So why am I telling this? 1st of all just because I'm reqding about this for an exam so I want to talk about it. 2 to show that the poland-lithuania wasn't as simple as just a PU and liberty desire. Ofc I'm not expecting for things to play out for the first 100 years simillarly to what happend irl but I don't want it as simple poland and ally lithuania fight teutonic order and his ally bohemia, and then oh a PU, as much as I don't expect the whole shit with what Witold did to be represented (as well bro wasn't even born yet) the legal aspect of the polish teutonic wars would be cool. Maybe events where pope decides that teutons are stupid and need to return Chełmno and Gdańsk to poland so poland gains CB to retake those lands if teutons don't listen (they would most likely not listen) maybe the problem is to even get to even agree to have a legal battle as one side thinks the other will find some way to make it all biased, that would be a cool situation.
Now thanks for reading my incoherent ramblings with probably a ton of misspelings for that 1 person that had nothing better to do. No seriously what are you doing with your life?
 
Here are some disaster suggestions:

Ascendancy of Ulugh Beg from EU2: Could be a disaster for Timurids and maybe even for similar entities, that happen when a weak ruler supersedes a strong ruler.

Japanese Pirates (for China): Big immigration push and a small population growth penalty unless you do something about those barbarians...

Trinh-Nguyen civil war for Vietnam and Regreg War for Majapahit are additional examples. I think you'll find the AGCEEP mod for EU2 For the Glory quite useful, lots of historical events there that could be made into disasters, all of them sourced too.
 
Maybe a stupid idea, or maybe just too late i the game, but maybe partitions of poland could be a disaster that can happen from the age of absolutism if you have strong sejm low absolutism and border 3 christian Gps (although thats probably too rare since well prussia and even austria weren't really global powers just european one and probably that late in the game poland would probably need to border france mughals and Qing or somethig XD but then the christian thing doesn't make sense) so maybe specifically strong austria prussia and russia. You could have events about foreign bribes and you could either endup as a russian pupet border state (irl endgoal of russia) be slowly split (like irl) or reform (3rd may constitution but actually surviving the war, also just wanna say "War in the defence of constitution" is such a cool name) although that would probably need to a situation since the whole multiple nations. The other situation I can think of is polish teutonic conflicts as from the start date till probably the death of Jagiełło nearly 100 years later there were a lot of legal battles, aliances switched often based on the rulings of court, often involving papal state (during the 1410-11 war hungary was an ally of teutons, by 1414 Jagiełło and Sigismund were buddies and Polish king hoped that the Hungarian king will rule in his favour just for the king of bohemia to die in 1429 and sigismund wanting support of german princes to rule in the orders favour, so poland started to think about the option of accepting the Hussite offer of making Jagiełło the king of Bohemia just so for everything to change again after another war with teutons and Sigismunt became an ally to Jagiełło) not to count the matters of silesia or lithuania. The former was agreed (technically) by Casimir the great to be a part of bohemia yet by 1420's Sigismund promised Jagiełło silesia if he married his daughter. And Lithuania, it wasn't really an ally till Jadwiga married Jagiełło and even after that, brothers of Jagiełło gave him a shit ton of problems (first of all sorry for using polish names for this) Witold at first wanted parts of lithuania that he should get after their dads death allied woth teutons, then switched sides and became duke of lithuania (under Jagiełło the king of poland) then even became grand duke of lithuania (still under Jagiełło) and was cool with him in 1410 but then was offerd a crown by Sigismund then he died in 1430 just so for Jagiełło to choose another brother as a grand duke without talking about it with nobles (against any treaty between poland and lithuania) and using turmoil in podolia he allied themselfs with teutons and went to war with Jagiełło just to fell to a coup and be replaced with other brother so by 1432 situation was finally settled. So why am I telling this? 1st of all just because I'm reqding about this for an exam so I want to talk about it. 2 to show that the poland-lithuania wasn't as simple as just a PU and liberty desire. Ofc I'm not expecting for things to play out for the first 100 years simillarly to what happend irl but I don't want it as simple poland and ally lithuania fight teutonic order and his ally bohemia, and then oh a PU, as much as I don't expect the whole shit with what Witold did to be represented (as well bro wasn't even born yet) the legal aspect of the polish teutonic wars would be cool. Maybe events where pope decides that teutons are stupid and need to return Chełmno and Gdańsk to poland so poland gains CB to retake those lands if teutons don't listen (they would most likely not listen) maybe the problem is to even get to even agree to have a legal battle as one side thinks the other will find some way to make it all biased, that would be a cool situation.
Now thanks for reading my incoherent ramblings with probably a ton of misspelings for that 1 person that had nothing better to do. No seriously what are you doing with your life?
Oh god and ofcourse I don't know how to use a forum on phone cause it made me reply to the whole post, sorry
 
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