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Tinto Talks #42 - 18th of December 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesday where we give you information about our upcoming super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will be talking about the disaster system, which has been present in different forms in recent GSG games from Paradox.

Disasters
There are two major differences between a disaster and a situation. The first is that a disaster is almost always negative, and secondly a disaster is always for a specific country. While multiple situations can be active and involving a country at the same time, only a single disaster can happen at the same time.

There are also two categories of disasters. The specific historical narratives, and the generic ones that can happen to anyone under the right circumstances.

Disasters in Project Caesar are not just a modifier applied to the country, and some events triggering until you fulfill the winning conditions, but you also get unique actions you can do to affect the disaster.

Let's start looking at some common more generic disasters.

Court and Country
Resistance to the growing centralization in our country has culminated in a period of general crisis and conflict between Court and Country. Depending on how we handle this time of crisis we might come out of it a stronger country than before.

This disaster can happen to any country with strong Absolutism or Crown Power in the Age of Absolutism or Age of Revolution.

court_and_country.png

The Nobility has taken the biggest offence to this plan

As you can see above here the UI for this disaster shows your current crown power, and the power of your estates, while also showing the rebel closest to starting a civil war. It also lists the current actions you have in the disaster. Here we cannot rein in the Nobility, as they are too strong already.

Two of the icons above have special tooltips that are useful for you as well.

end_condition.png

You have to endure it for at least a decade..

advice.png

In case you don’t know how to increase crown power..


Religious Turmoil
religious_turmoil.png


Despite the country's efforts to mediate between the different religious groups in our nation, conflicts have been erupting on a regular basis. The situation has worsened and without drastic measures, we will soon be engulfed in a religious civil war.

This disaster can occur during the Age of Reformation for any Catholic country or any country following any Protestant religion, if they have a low enough religious unity and a weak clergy estate.

To get out of this disaster there are multiple ways: get religious unity higher; get the power of the clergy much higher as a spiritualist; or go full humanist, while restoring stability.

While this disaster is happening, there will be a lot of conflict from religious minorities in the country.



If we look into some of the country specific ones, we have a few here, and we don’t want to spoil them all..

The Rise of Savonarola
savonarola.png


An upstart preacher has started to spread his apocalyptic message, advocating for repentance and reform. His message is causing quite a stir among the population, and it's for sure a sign of changing times.

This is a disaster that is likely to happen to Florence in the last decades of the 15th century, if they are a Catholic republic.

To get out of this disaster you either have to become a Theocracy or Savonarola will have to die.


War of the Roses
war_of_the_roses.png


Two junior branches of the House of Plantagenet, the House of Lancaster and the House of York, both claim to be the rightful heir to the throne of England. Sporadic fights between their supporters have already broken out in a number of provinces around the country. Their heraldic symbols, a red rose and a white rose, have already become synonymous with the conflict now commonly known as the War of the Roses.

This is a specific disaster for England which can happen during the 15th century if the ruling dynasty is Plantagenet, and some specific historical events have happened. It will allow you to side with either York or Lancaster as it will build up to a civil war for the throne.



So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster? Post your suggestions here..

Now, you either get a Christmas present next Wednesday, or you get a lump of coal…
 
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I think having a child ruler (regency council in EUIV) should be a minor disaster until the ruler is old enough to reign on his own, where nobles seize some power away from the crown, faraway regions lose loyalty, and nearby countries get opportunities to support rival claimants.
 
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Pavía said:
I meant 'Crisis of the [X] Dynasty' disaster, just corrected the post, sorry for the error.
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FWIW while I think a "Crisis of the X Dynasty" disaster that can fire at all times is good and fun, I do think an actual bespoke situation for the fall of Ming/transition from Ming to Qing would still be good to have in the game. Rebels, the Shun Dynasty, Jurchen uprising all that jazz.
 
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Would it make more sense to just combine situations and disasters into a single mechanic? With the difference being that some situations can just effect a single country? I think in general EU4 has so many specific sub-features and mechanics and that this level of complexity can prevent a barrier for new players getting familiar with the game. This would be a case where the game could be simplified (by merging two terms into one) without losing any actual mechanical depth.

It feels like the only reason Situations and Disasters are treated as two different things in this game is because they were mechanically different things in EU4 (disasters, and HRE situations/crises). It might be better to just take a fresh look and merge the two, since it seems to just be the same thing - a mechanic to simulate specific historical events beyond the scope of the core game's simulation mechanics.
 
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AHumpierRogue said:
FWIW while I think a "Crisis of the X Dynasty" disaster that can fire at all times is good and fun, I do think an actual bespoke situation for the fall of Ming/transition from Ming to Qing would still be good to have in the game. Rebels, the Shun Dynasty, Jurchen uprising all that jazz.
Click to expand...
The thing is, the Red Turbans Rebellion won't necessarily end with the Ming triumphant, as there could be several other outcomes. So a generic disaster fits better there. Also, let's say, if we have a Manchu ('Qing') dynasty becoming Emperor of China, but falling before it happened historically.
 
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Pavía said:
The thing is, the Red Turbans Rebellion won't necessarily end with the Ming triumphant, as there could be several other outcomes. So a generic disaster fits better there. Also, let's say, if we have a Manchu ('Qing') dynasty becoming Emperor of China, but falling before it happened historically.
Click to expand...
Are situations so rigid that they can't have a number of possible dynasties? Genuine question, I know they have preset members but can't they just preselect a bunch of potential dynasties that emerge out of the RTR as "the one", and then just only 1 dynasty would still exist by the time it's ready to happen?
 
So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster?
Click to expand...
1.
Struggle for Polish succesion of Władysław Biały after the death of Casimir III. He was the first Piast member in line for succession after Casimir III. After his death he abandonded his order in Dijon and returned to Poland twice, in 2nd attempt he took several castles in Kujawy and withstood 6 month siege of Greater Polish governor loyal to Louis I.
A POSSIBLE way to return back to the piast after choosing Louis I?
2.
Polish 2 year long civil war after the death of king Louis I (successor to Casimir III) between the 2 Nobel houses Nałęcz and Grzymała im Greater Poland.
It was a time of great instability during those 2 years. Lithuanians raided Lesser Poland and enslaved over 2000 people from there, there was a pogrom of 200~ Hungarians in Kraków.

Youtuber TrashingmadPL talked about all of these in his animation history of Poland series on YT.
 
The War of the Roses made sense as a disaster for EUIV but for PC which starts more than a century earlier I am worried it may feel a little railroaded. After all, the people who would establish the Yorkist and Lancastrian lines are not yet born I 1327. I hope the conditions for this disaster to fire will be quite strict so that we do not see it in most games. I would suggest representing the War of the Roses with a generic disaster for all countries that can fire if specific conditions are met, akin to those seen my England at the time of that conflict.

In contrast, I think the English Civil War would make more sense to include as a specific disaster since a conflict between the absolutist ideas gaining ground on the continent in the 17th century and the role of parliament in England would be more likely to result in a conflict of the type we saw historically irrespective of the exact people involved.
 
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1734536962461.png



I see that your icon for the commoners is a sword and pitchfork. But isn't the sword exclusively a weapon of the nobility?
When it comes to weapons, wouldn't the commoners use mostly their tools like axes, flails, pickaxes, billhooks or more versatile items like bows and quarter staffs? :)
 
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Pavía said:
The thing is, the Red Turbans Rebellion won't necessarily end with the Ming triumphant, as there could be several other outcomes. So a generic disaster fits better there. Also, let's say, if we have a Manchu ('Qing') dynasty becoming Emperor of China, but falling before it happened historically.
Click to expand...
Speaking of which, how often will Ming become emperor of china?
 
Pavía said:
There's a situation for Colonial Revolutions, and we aim to have some specific events and flavor for the US Independence.
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Please don't make it a railroaded event or whatever you want to call it. I think the way you do it in EUIV where the player can either grant an act of representation or and act of taxation, indicating two different ways of dealing with the colonies is really good. I would hate knowing that every play through I would have to deal with an American Independence event.
 
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Lehnaru said:
Likely, but not 100% guaranteed every time, right? Riiiight??
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What can you do to stop it in 4 years lol, and Timurids was always having post crisis after death of Shah Rukh in eu4 , so Byzantine civil war should always occur, but of course result of civil war would matter from game to game
 
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Witcher587 said:
1.
Struggle for Polish succesion of Władysław Biały after the death of Casimir III. He was the first Piast member in line for succession after Casimir III. After his death he abandonded his order in Dijon and returned to Poland twice, in 2nd attempt he took several castles in Kujawy and withstood 6 month siege of Greater Polish governor loyal to Louis I.
A POSSIBLE way to return back to the piast after choosing Louis I?
2.
Polish 2 year long civil war after the death of king Louis I (successor to Casimir III) between the 2 Nobel houses Nałęcz and Grzymała im Greater Poland.
It was a time of great instability during those 2 years. Lithuanians raided Lesser Poland and enslaved over 2000 people from there, there was a pogrom of 200~ Hungarians in Kraków.

Youtuber TrashingmadPL talked about all of these in his animation history of Poland series on YT.
Click to expand...
Casimir is still young at the beginning of the game, there's plenty of time to have a legitimate son.
 
Witcher587 said:
Except, diplomacy which is all just modifiers.
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I meant for that specific feature, we've been showing plenty of modifiers here and there. ;)
 
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gebali said:
Guys, I'm trying to be as frank as I can, without any malice.

The UI looks terrible. Anything shown in this DD fails both in asthetic and User Experience.
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I agree with this.
gebali said:
Please, please PLEASE consult with the artists of CK3 and Vic3. This is an abomination and waaay below modern Paradox standards.
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But I wouldn't go with CK3 / Vic3. (had to remove my checkmark once I got to this line).

GenericUsername1444 said:
The devs have said so many times by now that the UI is WiP.
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While it is work in progress it has been mentioned that the direction has been set. i.e. there are different levels of WiP. If sweeping changes are needed now is the time to speak up.
 
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How easy is it to avoid disasters? In EU4, they were sometimes pretty simple to avoid with exceptions so that some disasters often felt less like 'content' and more like 'here's a guideline of things you shouldn't do'.
 
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