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Tinto Talks #44 - 1st of January 2025

Hello Everyone, and Welcome to a new Tinto Talks. This is the Happy Wednesday, where we give you information about our future upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we’ll go over all the trade goods we have in the game. Goods that are raw materials may be extracted from RGO operations in the locations that have them present, but many of them also have buildings that can produce their goods at a slightly less efficiency or capacity for when you need access to it.

Produced goods can only be produced from various buildings.

Some goods have a base-production, which is added to each market, scaled by total development of that market.

Some resources require more trade capacity than others to move a resource between markets. Unless specified, the transport cost is 1.

Default prices is the price a goods would have if supply and demand are matching exactly. The price in each market depends on the supply and demand of the goods in that actual market. The price range changes depending on the age, where in Age of Tradition, prices currently range from 50% to 200% of the default price, while in Age of Revolutions the prices range from 20% to 500% of the default price.

Goods are required by pops, units, building inputs, constructions and more. One important aspect is that you actually need the goods, and if the demand is higher than the supply, then buildings or pops in locations further away from the market center will not get the goods they require!


Raw Materials

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Horses


Default Price is 3 and Transport Cost is 2

Horses were domesticated at an unknown point of the Eurasian Steppe around six thousand years ago. Since then, they have been used by people for a wide variety of tasks, although the most important has been waging war. In that sense, the Middle Ages were the Golden Age of cavalry, as it was closely linked to the development of feudal societies.

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Clay
Default Price is 0.25 and it has a base production of 0.02

Clay is a type of soil that has been used by humanity for the production of pottery and ceramics since prehistoric times. Another main use is in construction, in combination with other materials, or in the creation of bricks. Clay tablets were also one of the first writing methods invented, so its impact in the development of civilization is undeniable.

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Sand
Default Price is 0.5 and it has a base production of 0.01

Sand is one of the most common materials on Earth, and its uses are multiple and varied. It has been the most pervasive abrading material used to shape any kind of stone or metal due to it being coarse and rough, as a component of many building materials and as the main material for the production of glass, among many other uses.

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Stone
Default price is 1, it has a transport cost of 5, and a base production of 0.01

Stone has been one of the main building materials of humanity throughout all its history. Stronger and more durable than other options like clay or wood, it was the go-to material for any construction built to last. Buildings from long ago like the Pyramids have reached our times still standing due to the durability of the stone they were made of.

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Coal
Default Price is 2 and has a transport cost of 2

Coal has a long history as a source of fuel, but it is not until the invention and dissemination of the practical steam engine that demand would take off. As the Industrial Revolution swept across Europe, the use and export or import of coal would become a major business and an integral part of a modern economy.

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Iron
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Iron represents not just iron, but other ferrous metals and the production of alloys such as steel. Iron formed the basis of the metallurgical industry and was used extensively in the production of weapons and other military equipment.

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Copper
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Copper was the main component of bronze and was essential in the early production of cannons.

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Gold

Default Price is 10, but the production impacts inflation.

Gold was the basis of many formal currencies in Europe. The great gold mines of Central and South America would end the great bullion crisis that had gripped Europe in the previous century. However, unwise usage of this great wealth could lead to inflation and ruin.

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Silver
Default Price is 8, but the production impacts inflation.

Silver was one of the first metals used as money and the most successful along with gold. Central Europe became the center of silver production during the Middle Ages, although the Columbian Exchange shifted the focus of world production to the Americas, making it the main production center of a newborn global network since the 16th century.


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Tin
Default Price is 2

Tin was used extensively for the first time in metallurgy as part of the alloy to obtain bronze 5000 years ago. Later it has been widely used to coat other metals and alloys, such as iron, lead or steel, to prevent corrosion, as well as to make pewter, very common in tableware.

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Lead
Default Price is 2

Lead has been obtained since ancient times as a by-product of silver extraction by burning galena. Lead was then used in a wide range of household and manufactured products, especially by the Romans, whose levels of lead production were not reached until the Industrial Revolution. In the Modern Age, it became the main material for making bullets for firearms.

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Silk

Default Price is 4

The finest of all fabrics of the east was the silk produced in India, China, and East Asia. While less iconic than spices, the profits from silk and finely woven cotton cloth would in fact soon dwarf those of the spice trade for the European East India Companies. Due to increasing demand attempts were also made to produce the material locally in mercantilist Europe, with very varied degrees of success.

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Dyes
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 0.5

For as long as textiles have been woven there has been a market for fine dyes. During the late Middle Ages expensive dyes such as indigo would be worth a fortune due to how distant the source in India was. As the world opened up dyes became easier to get hold of, both through the possibilities to produce them in America and the greater accessibility of the Indian market. Nonetheless, dyes remained rare and in the early 19th century; as the dye plantations in India fell into European hands, a veritable gold rush ensued.

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Incense

Default Price is 2.5 and transport cost is 0.5

To spread smoke and fragrance through the burning of materials has been common in ceremonial practices for centuries. Frankincense, agarwood, sandalwood, myrrh, and other goods suited for this use can be found in few places and their diffusion was an integral part in the formation of trade networks such as the Silk Road or the fittingly named Incense Route.

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Tea

Default Price is 3

Tea was an important luxury drink in China, India, and South-East Asia. It was often used in religious or social rituals. The English popularized tea in Europe. Never considered as noble a drink as coffee, it still produced large profit merely from the fact that the world supply was low.

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Cocoa

Default Price is 4

Cocoa was used as a stimulant by the Aztec, Incan, and Indian rulers since the early medieval times. It was popularized in Europe in the early 16th century when the Spaniards imported it from its American colonies. Cocoa became a luxury enjoyed by the rich.

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Coffee

Default Price is 3

Coffee was discovered in the northeast region of Ethiopia and coffee cultivation first took place in southern Arabia. From the Middle East, coffee spread to Italy in the 17th century and was then introduced to the rest of Europe. Coffee became more widely accepted after it was deemed a Christian beverage by Pope Clement VIII in 1600, despite appeals to ban the 'Muslim drink'.

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Fiber Crops

Default Price is 2

Many different fibrous crops are used all around the world to craft a multitude of products such as sails, ropes, fishing nets, and clothes. Beyond their use to produce coarse textiles, however, many are also used as a core part of the production of finer textiles, used in ceremonies, households, and elsewhere. Some examples are hemp, flax, jute, and sisal.

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Ivory
Default Price is 4

Ivory was one of the main exports of Africa apart from slaves. It was highly sought after by Europeans for use in various manufactured goods such as cutlery, gifts, small pieces of art, furniture, etc.

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Fur
Default Price is 2

Furs were one of the basic elements of high quality and warm clothing. Skins from all kinds of animals were supplied initially from Russia but more and more from North America where beavers would be the prize of choice at least till the late middle 18th century.

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Lumber
Default Price is 1 and the base production is 0.005

Lumber has been one of the main building materials for humanity throughout all its history. Although less durable than stone, it is more easily accessible have made it a staple of any building in all places of the world. Even structures designed to be resistant like castles and fortifications have also their versions made out of wood rather than stone.

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Salt

Default Price is 3

Salt is essential for human life. In addition, it was the most common means to preserve food for the long winter months. It was either mineral, brought from mines in Central Europe, or natural, from salt wetlands production via evaporation along sunny coastlines.

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Medicaments
Default Price is 1 and transport cost is 0.5

A wide variety of plants and animal products have been used throughout history to treat all kinds of illnesses, due to their medicinal properties or supposition thereof. Some were more based on actual properties than others, while in some cases it was more a matter of belief in their effectiveness.

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Gems
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 0.5

Since the earliest times, stones such as rubies, sapphires, diamonds, emeralds, jade, or pearls, have been used in jewelry and ceremonial attire. For centuries the only source of diamonds in the world were the fabled mines at Golconda. While not all precious stones are as rare, they are all highly sought-after commodities.


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Pearls
Default Price is 4

Pearls are produced inside different kinds of shelled mollusks. The resulting product is a hard glistening object, ideally round but can take many shapes. They have been appreciated for their beauty and used like gemstones as ornaments all over the world through all human history.

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Amber
Default Price is 4

Amber is a valuable good made from fossilized resin that was primarily used in the manufacture of jewelry and ornaments. Its main source has been depots on the Prussian coast, mentioned for the first time in a 12th-century document.

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Saltpeter
Default Price is 2

Saltpeter has been known since antiquity, and its uses have been varied such as a fertilizer or as salt for meat processing. However, it was the invention of gunpowder and firearms during the Middle Ages that really raised its importance, as it is one of the main components of it, together with charcoal and sulfur. Mined in great quantities around the world, this metal will go on to acquire an infamous reputation.

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Alum
Default Price is 3

Alum is an essential ingredient in dye-making as well as specializing in the tanning process. Seeing use in a variety of artistic and craft contexts, it is primarily utilized in painting and illuminating processes. Originating mostly from the Chad region, it was traded in the markets of the entire Islamic world, but in the Late Middle Ages, other sources started to be exploited in Europe.

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Spices
Default Price is 6 and the transport cost is 0.25

Spices have been known in Europe since ancient times, mostly for their medicinal value, and for their ability to improve the taste of food. Pepper, ginger, nutmeg, chili, cinnamon, etc. came partly from East Africa but mostly from India, China, and the Spice Islands (current Indonesia), to be traded in Alexandria or the other terminals of the great caravan roads. The European desire for cheaper and more direct supply constituted the main motivation for the very first eastbound sea voyages of discoveries for Portugal.

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Wine
Default Price is 2

Wines have been produced since time immemorial in the southern parts of Europe. It still constituted an essential element of the everyday diet, except maybe in the Muslim world. Wine was not considered a luxury product but probably served as a welcome relief for hundreds to an otherwise dull diet.

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Elephants
Default Price is 10

Elephants have been used in warfare since ancient times in India, South East Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa. The use of elephantry persisted in some of these regions into the Middle Ages, although the advent of gunpowder warfare in the Modern Age outpaced its usefulness in battle.

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Marble
Default Price is 5

Marble has been used in sculptures and constructions since Antiquity, being considered a type of luxurious material due to its appearance and ductility. Some of the best works of art made by Renaissance and Baroque artists, such as Michelangelo or Bernini, are made of marble.

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Mercury
Default Price is 3

Mercury is used for medicine, but will also be of great importance to refine gold and silver ores of lesser qualities in order to make them profitable.

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Cotton
Default Price is 3

Cotton originated from Central Asia but was not widely used in Europe until it was introduced to the American colonies and used as a cheap but good complement or substitute for wool in the clothing industry of the late 18th century

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Sugar
Default Price is 3

Sugar was used not only as a sweetener but also for food preservation. The sugar cane was the only known means of obtaining sugar at this time and had been grown initially in some Mediterranean islands. But the labor-intensive plantation system in America, especially in the Caribbean islands, would soon move the major production sources overseas.

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Tobacco
Default Price is 3

Tobacco was unknown in Europe until brought from Americans in the late 16th century. It quickly became a fashion for the upper classes who could afford it and ensured the fast and profitable economic growth of the British colonies in North America, as well as in Portuguese Brazil.



Food

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Wool
Default Price is 2.5 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Wool came mostly from sheep that grazed in the more marginal lands not suited to other forms of agriculture. Prior to the use of cotton, it was the major raw material for clothing.

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Wild Game
Default Price is 1 and produces 2.5 food per unit produced.

Wild game is the source of food and nutrition for local populations, especially in sparsely populated rural communities. The hunt of wild animals such as elk, deer, boars and more, are an important cornerstone of a society due to the fact that the aforementioned animals contribute leather, bones, entrails and nutrition to the populace.

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Fish
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Fish was one of the most basic foods for the European population in this age, as meat was more than a luxury for the great majority. Fishermen also provided the basic recruiting pool of the merchant and military navies of most nations.

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Wheat
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

Wheat represents the vegetable foodstuff that was the staple diet for humans and animals. Lack of it would always lead to revolts and riots. Other cereals and vegetable foodstuffs would later be augmented by tomatoes, corn, and even potatoes from America offering a wider choice both in food and agricultural production varieties.

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Soybeans
Default Price is 1 and produces 6 food per unit produced.

Soybeans are a type of legume that have been a staple crop in East Asia for almost ten thousand years. Their uses are quite versatile, as not only can they be eaten by themselves, but also milk can be extracted from them, which can also be further processed into tofu. Soybeans can also be fermented into products such as soy sauce and miso.

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Maize
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

A cultivated plant that was originally domesticated in Mexico, thousands of years ago, maize was traded between the new and the old world with the arrival of the Europeans in the 15th century. Due to its enduring nature as well as its higher dietary value, maize is destined to become a worldwide commodity.

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Rice
Default Price is 1 and produces 10 food per unit produced.

Rice is a type of grain that has been the staple food for Asia since its domestication more than ten thousand years ago. It was also independently domesticated in Africa more than three thousand years ago, and it has also been an important food source there ever since. It was brought to Europe through trade with Asia as far back as Classical Antiquity, although it did not manage to supersede other types of grain there.

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Sturdy Grains
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Sturdy Grains are different kinds of cereal grasses that have been domesticated in many parts of the World at different points in time ever since the Neolithic. Their greater resistance to poor quality soils and dry conditions have made them into a more important food source in semi-arid regions compared to other kinds of grain.

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Legumes
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Various civilizations across history have utilized legumes as a substantial source of nutrition for thousands of years. Much like maize, Europeans were introduced to new types of them with their eventual arrival on the shores of the New World. Legumes were not only filling but also cheap to produce and move on ships.

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Potato
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

The potato is a starchy tuber domesticated around Lake Titicaca by the native people of the Andes. It helped the rise of the Andean civilizations thanks to its hardiness and high caloric density. After the Columbian exchange, it spread all around the globe and by 1750 it was a staple food in Europe facilitating its 19th-century population boom.

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Livestock
Default Price is 1.5 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

Since the dawn of history, the care for domesticated animals has been one of the main occupations of humanity. Livestock includes everything from cows and horses in rich agricultural areas to the herds of pastoralists in the great plains and deserts of the world.

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Olives
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Olives are harvested from the trees of the same name, which have been cultivated around the Mediterranean Sea for thousands of years. They are highly appreciated in gastronomy, especially the olive oil that is used to cook and dress a wide range of foods in Mediterranean cuisine.

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Dates
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Dates are a type of fruit harvested from date palm trees, which grow in semi-arid, but fertile terrains throughout the Middle East and North Africa. Dates are widely used in the different cuisines of these regions.

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Fruit
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Fruits cover a wide range of products found on trees such as citrus, bitter and sweet oranges, apples and more. For many, these products would be unattainable and a source of nutrition only for the elites. Nearly every region across the world is home to a different kind of fruit and the advent of global trade would go on to introduce different populations to various new fruits.


Produced Goods

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Tar
Default Price is 2

Originally propped up as a cash crop, tar is a valuable ingredient of the ship-building business. Its appearance, that of a thick black liquid, is due to the aggressive distillation process that is required for its production. Tar is widely used as a seal for ship hulls and as a cheap way to waterproof sails.

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Porcelain
Default Price is 3 and the transport cost is 0.5

Porcelain is a type of ceramics characterized by its strength and translucence due to the vitrification of the materials caused by high temperatures. It was developed in China over a period of time starting more than three thousand years ago, with proper porcelain being developed already almost two thousand years ago, and from there, it eventually spread to all over the world as a highly sought-after commodity.

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Naval Supplies
Default Price is 3

Naval Supplies represent everything needed in ship construction, from basic wood to tar, ropes, linen, sails, and various other materials. The Baltic was initially the main supplier until North America became an alternate source of supply in the early 18th century. Colonial expansion into America was in part to secure supplies of such vital goods.

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Firearms
Default Price is 3

The conception and arrival of guns changed the dynamic of battlefields. Wars waged across Asia and Europe will now be subject to cultivating, importing and harnessing the potency of gunpowder. Guns have become a natural evolution of warfare and an essential part of protecting the sovereignty of domains across the earth.

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Cannons
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 1.5

Although siege weapons have existed since antiquity, the discovery of gunpowder has given rise to some weapons with a potentially destructive power that has never been seen before. The ability to throw bigger projectiles at greater speed and distances than ever before will make all but the sturdiest of fortifications quickly fall before them, without mentioning the effect those projectiles can have when fired towards armies themselves.

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Weaponry
Default Price is 3

Various weapons such as swords, pikes, and bows make up the core weaponry of every army. The techniques behind their creation are an art refined throughout the ages. Despite that and regardless of how different the era may be, weaponry will always be a vital instrument to protect one's independence.

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Glass
Default Price is 2 and transport cost is 0.5

Glass has been valued for centuries as a useful material for art, architecture, or simply the crafting of vessels for daily use. Eventually, as glassmaking techniques improved, glass would also become crucial to the scientific field of optics, with glass lenses being used in the fabrication of spectacles, telescopes, and a plethora of other devices with wide-ranging applications from maritime navigation to the natural sciences.

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Steel
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 2

Steel is widely used for the crafting of weaponry and guns. Various of its qualities are used for different weapons, blunt steel for axes and high-quality steel for swords and knives. As such, steel is also employed as the main metal for the forging of equipment and tools.

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Cloth
Default Price is 3

Cloth represents the various fabrics and clothing made from wool and linen. Later cotton, imported from India and the Americas, became a major material for cloth.

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Fine Cloth
Default Price is 6

Fine clothing was traditionally a marker of status for the elites and wealthy classes. Textiles such as damasks, muslins, or brocades were marketed and replicated throughout the world as a very profitable business in the Middle and Modern Ages.

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Liquor
Default Price is 2.5

Liquor is an alcoholic beverage produced by distillation of very different types of products of plant origin. Distillation is done to increase the alcohol by volume. Popular liquors distilled and consumed around the world were gin, rum, whisky, vodka, tequila, or shōchū.

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Beer
Default Price is 2

Beer has been a pillar of gastronomy since it was first brewed in the Neolithic. It became a widespread drink in the Middle Ages, and was the object of the oldest food-quality regulation still in use, the Bavarian 'Reinheitsgebot'.

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Slaves
Default Price is 3

Slaves had been a trading commodity since Antiquity, but demand increased sharply in the late 16th century when Slaves offered one of the cheapest sources of labor for European plantations in the Americas.

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Paper
Default Price is 2

Paper is a necessity for all types of advanced accounting, administration, and diffusion of knowledge. The process of its production was originally devised in China and then slowly made its way to all corners of the Old World. Far superior to other types of writing materials such as parchment, the large-scale production of paper requires a specialized set of skills and equipment, making it a rare and sought after commodity.

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Books
Default Price is 5

Books have been one of the main custodians of human knowledge since writing was invented thousands of years ago. They were usually made of leather parchment, paper, and other plant fibers. The invention and spread of movable type printing systems in the Middle Ages made books much more widespread and accessible to the population.

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Jewelry
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 0.5

Jewelry represents a set of regalia or ornaments that are crafted by skilled smiths using jewels and precious stones. Their value is often associated with high social standing and even royalty.

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Leather
Default Price is 3

One of humanity's earliest discoveries, leather is largely used in the manufacturing of clothes, footwear, and decoration. Its success is largely attributed to its high level of comfort and durability, eventually becoming the choice material for the making of dinner-related furniture, due to leather being easy to maintain while being resistant to absorbing food odor.

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Tools
Default Price is 3

The production of tools is the main factor that allowed human society to flourish. From the more simple and primitive stone tools to the most advanced and precise implements developed through the use of metallurgy, they allow the further creation of equipment and weapons.


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Masonry
Default Price is 1

Construction techniques come in all shapes and sizes. The ability to fabricate smaller pieces with a regular size and shape to use in construction greatly increases not only the efficiency in which buildings can be constructed but also their durability once built.


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Lacquerware
Default Price is 5

Lacquerware was developed in China and Japan as far back as the Neolithic period, more than ten thousand years ago, and consists in covering products made of wood or metal with a decorative layer of lacquer, a product extracted from resin and wax. This lacquer layer can then be further decorated with paintings, carvings or dustings of gold or silver making it into a luxurious good.

Stay Tuned, as next week we'll delve into the effects of all vegetations, topography and climate.
 
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What will be brought to the game by separating Berries, Citrus Fruits and regular Fruits? Just more to be more?
Pigs and Cows also why?
Same question applies for dates or grapes.

Citrus Fruits like oranges started to be produced in the mediterranean, imported from the East around the late rennaissance IIRC.
They were considered luxury items.
My grandfather in Belgium, born in a family with means, was actually given an orange as a christmas present around the time of WW2 since it was considered luxurious and exotic.
Oranges from Valencia were actually the main of great value by the spanish economy until after ww2.

In PCaesar, berries could be produced in Scandinavia and other northern latitudes to better model the scarce sources of food in that region historically.
 
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In the golden age of armour, you're seriously not going to represent it? Yes, it very much was a trade good, places like Milan mass produced armour for export and local use, thousands per annum. Is a man-at-arms going to be no more armoured than a Zulu warrior?

Next you'll tell us about how mamluks do the same shock damage as late medieval knights, even though you can't have a lance rest without a breastplate. Lance rests double the force delivered.

Pretty sure it is abstracted away in weaponry, which is fine by me
 
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Lighting fuel is a grouping of wax(candles)+lamp oil+whale oil+tallow(candles). Anything that can be used to provide light.
Could be a byproduct of livestock RGO (tallow), honey production (wax). Also an explicit oil production (from olives) and whaling.
Honey should really just be sugar. It has no use where these two would not be equivalent.

I haven't seen whales as a resource, are they abstracted into fish? So then there'd be a building that takes in fish and produces lighting fuel.

Was this transported much? It sounds like it can be represented by coal, to be honest.

I don't think it was transported. Marking peat producing locations as coal would have some problems however. One could increase production by some mine buildings that work for coal but really don't work for peat. And one could sell the peat like one sells coal, with similar transportation cost.

Perhaps instead of a tradable good, a modifier that says the location/province/whatever has locally available fuel for heating, so it does not need to buy it. Along with some general production malus to simulate the time spent on extracting and processing that fuel, as opposed to buying it. That could also apply to firewood. Then again, that modifier would apply for most locations on the map, so perhaps instead a modifier for those locations that need to import fuel for heating.
 
I hope I'm not too late with this feedback, I might need to repost this in the production methods TT if there is one.

I think there is a strong case for adding at least a few more manufactured goods, since there are relatively few compared to raw materials, and I feel that Paradox Tinto has missed some vital ones.

The picture that I attached illustrates my thoughts on some interconnected production chains. These include porcelain, as well as three new manufactured goods: potash, gunpowder, and soap.

1000014407.jpg


Gunpowder:
Saltpeter isn't enough for firearms on its own. To be useful, it should be made into gunpowder, which has three ingredients - saltpeter, sulphur, and carbon (often in the form of charcoal).

The production chain that I propose is coal + saltpeter = gunpowder. This strikes a balance between realism, since the two most important ingredients are included, and reducing the degree of material bloat, by not needing to include a new raw material of sulphur.

The use for gunpowder is obvious, and can be incorporated into the supply system for armies, or whatever other system Paradox Tinto intends.

Gunpowder is produced in a building, and leaves room for saltpeter to also have potential use as a fertiliser, to add extra utility beyond this one production chain.

Ash / Potash:
Charcoal production was big business in medieval times, and is an expensive way to generate coal (consider coal equivalent to charcoal) if a market lacks it.

A by-product of charcoal production is wood ash from the burning of wood used to generate the temperatures necessary for pyrolysis.

Wood ash / potash has myriad uses in this time period. One proposed production chain is to produce porcelain with (pot)ash, clay, and maybe a heat source like coal or wood, depending on how complex you want it to be. There is even room to include dyes in the production chain which I did not depict in the diagram.

(Pot)ash, water, and clay are a real life recipe for glazed pottery employed in China from 1000 BC, so this recipe is realistic. Of course, finer porcelain requires kaolin clay and other pigments, but this recipe is a good enough abstraction for this game I think.

A second use of potash is a fertiliser, if you want to simulate it in PC along with Saltpeter.

The third use of potash is to produce the final proposed manufactured good - soap.

As a final note, some parts of the world like Ethiopia have mineable potash, which was harvested in this time period. In that case, potash can be a hybrid raw and manufactured good, where most parts of the world will need to produce it artificially.

Soap:
Soap is super important, so I am surprised it hasn't already been included in the manufactured goods list.
In real life, soap can (and was) created with a simple recipe of: organic fat or oil + potash.

Ash can be called "potash" in PC, since certain types of plant / wood ash are classified as potash when leached with water, and potash is more useful than just ash.

Animal fat or organic oils can be considered a by-product of livestock or wild game, and you could even use olives as a plant oil substitute.

Some sort of soap producing building can turn these ingredients into soap. In real life, fragrances were often added, which you may choose to simulate with medicaments as a third ingredient, though I don't think this is necessary.

Soap should be a good demanded by the population, and should have the effect of reducing the death rate, simulated through increasing the population growth rate in locations with sufficient market access.

Soap can also be a way to partially offset the mortality rate and spread of diseases like the black death. If a market has access to lots of soap, the death rate could be reduced a little bit.

Thanks for reading, let me know what you think!
 
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1 - in theory yes, if you control all locations producing it, and also remove all horse farm buildings.
2 - in some places yes
3 - we are looking into mine depletions, but in most previous games we have made that tend to be very annoying for the player, or extremely gamey.
Plz don't add resource depletion :eek:
Or perhaps make it a game rule?
 
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Soap should be a good demanded by the population, and should have the effect of reducing the death rate, simulated through increasing the population growth rate in locations with sufficient market access.

Soap can also be a way to partially offset the mortality rate and spread of diseases like the black death. If a market has access to lots of soap, the death rate could be reduced a little bit.
Hey man, nice ideas overall!

In this relation you establish between soap and survivability to the Plague, however, I have to disagree for a number of reasons.

The main one is sociological: even if the vast majority of the population had access to soap, their lack of hygiene habits - frequency and thoroughness of personal hygiene - would render soap usage ineffective.

The next one has to do with the generally unsanitary conditions in which humanity resided until the industrial age. Soap has little chance "against" cities with no sanitation, garbage everywhere and other serious potential vectors for infectious diseases.

The last one directly correlates with the squalor argument and has to do with the vector for the Yersinia Pestis, the rat flea.
Even showering/bathing daily and washing hands every hour or so, in an environment in which rats and their parasites abound, if bitten by the flea, then the infection becomes almost unavoidable.

Soap, by itself, has little effect if unaccompanied by major public health measures. Even the Roman Empire, with much more developed public sanitation works (and soap!) suffered tremendously with this same pathogenic agent.

Having said this, I think soap would make for a fine addition nonetheless.
 
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its not the same, please keep transport cost. i've wanted transport costs in a pdx game since forever! probably since vic2
What should transport cost be an abstraction of? Resource quantities are arbitrary anyway. 1 boatload of stone is just as difficult to transport as 1 boatload of potatoes. Given that most goods have a transport cost of 1, I'm assuming that's the idea the devs started with before they introduced transport cost, unless quantities are standardized by some other metric that I'm not aware of. Having exceptions to the rule seems unnecessary to me.
 
Hey man, nice ideas overall!

In this relation you establish between soap and survivability to the Plague, however, I have to disagree for a number of reasons.

The main one is sociological: even if the vast majority of the population had access to soap, their lack of hygiene habits - frequency and thoroughness of personal hygiene - would render soap usage ineffective.

The next one has to do with the generally unsanitary conditions in which humanity resided until the industrial age. Soap has little chance "against" cities with no sanitation, garbage everywhere and other serious potential vectors for infectious diseases.

The last one directly correlates with the squalor argument and has to do with the vector for the Yersinia Pestis, the rat flea.
Even showering/bathing daily and washing hands every hour or so, in an environment in which rats and their parasites abound, if bitten by the flea, then the infection becomes almost unavoidable.

Soap, by itself, has little effect if unaccompanied by major public health measures. Even the Roman Empire, with much more developed public sanitation works (and soap!) suffered tremendously with this same pathogenic agent.

Having said this, I think soap would make for a fine addition nonetheless.
Thanks for your feedback! I appreciate the insight into soap's effects on plagues, and I suppose you're right that soap should have no effect on the spread of the plague in cities and towns.

Would it be reasonable for soap to limit the spread in rural locations, even if just to a small degree? In small villages, some of the factors that you mentioned would be lessened.

Even if soap has no effect at all on plague spread, it should certainly help with population growth. When doctors first started washing their hands with soap before delivering babies, the mortality rate of the mothers (and maybe the babies too?) dropped considerably. This effect, as well as helping to reduce infections in general life would certainly have a noticeable effect on the population growth rate.

Thanks again for your feedback :)
 
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Hey @ProperGander, my pleasure!

Would it be reasonable for soap to limit the spread in rural locations, even if just to a small degree? In small villages, some of the factors that you mentioned would be lessened.
Indeed, rural locations had it just a little bit easier because of smaller demographic pressure (and therefore less squalor).
One of the few effective strategies of Royal Families, and wealthy individuals in general, was to temporarily relocate to the countryside (they'd think of it in terms of "purer air").

Even if soap has no effect at all on plague spread, it should certainly help with population growth. When doctors first started washing their hands with soap before delivering babies, the mortality rate of the mothers (and maybe the babies too?) dropped considerably. This effect, as well as helping to reduce infections in general life would certainly have a noticeable effect on the population growth rate.
Population growth is closely tied to public health.
Soap usage, in the context of (increased) personal hygiene, is just a single contributing factor for that goal, alongside many others like a functioning sewage system or an easy access to drinkable water.
Another important aspect to have in mind is that we're talking about disease incidence upon populations that were usually lacking in proper nutrition, which is another decisive factor for the baseline health of human beings.

So, we have the deadly combo of lack of sanitary conditions and a generally weakened population for lack of proper nutrition. Fertile ground for infectious disease.

Answering your question directly, my personal opinion on the effectiveness of soap usage in that context... very poor, very little effect.
It would naturally be a positive factor, but just one good link in a very, very bad chain - akin to a drop of water in a swimming pool (or trying to treat a heart attack with ibuprofen).
Therefore, its effect on population growth would be negligible.

(It must also be considered there were practically no medical care systems in place and very few doctors. Medical science was underdeveloped, and germ theory belongs to the timeframe of Vicky3.)

Before the antibiotic and all the societal and scientific advances of the industrial age, the best way to boost population growth (and this is present-day knowledge) would be to secure a clean source of running water, get rid of waste as effectively and as fast as possible, avoid overcrowding and, first and foremost, assure food safety. Basically, Rome during the Pax Romana, minus the overcrowding. In this context, soap shines bright!

Cheers!
 
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One thing I’ve started thinking about in terms of splitting or merging resources is how things like the Colombian exchange will work. We haven’t heard much of anything of this at all, besides the fact that potatoes will eventually spread to other places (and presumably coffee, chocolate, and tea as well).

I don’t know how they’re planning to do this, but I would hope it works via internal economic mechanisms. If wheat and potatoes take the same amount of labor and both produce 8 food, then it doesn’t make sense for one to replace the other - it would basically just be a cosmetic change (except insofar as people have some preference for a varied diet, though we don’t know anything about how this sort of partial substitutability of goods might work for pop satisfaction, and it sounds like it didn’t work for spices). Instead, it makes sense for sturdy grains, which only produce 5 food, to get replaced by potatoes - particularly if they thrive in similar climate conditions.

But this also gives me the idea that other changes would make sense. Areas of South America that used to cultivate llamas switch at a certain point to cattle - which makes sense if cattle are a separate good that produces more food than generic livestock. Maybe citrus can replace generic fruit (pawpaws and avocados and the like) in northern Mexico, California, and Florida.

Similarly for luxury goods - you’ll only switch from dyes or incense to coffee or cocoa if there’s a big enough price differential for the goods locally for a long time. But at least some of the interest in subdividing a good is going to depend on whether anything is really gained by switching goods later on, or whether it’s just cosmetic. (Here I keep coming back to pearls and amber.)
 
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Certain religions prohibit the consumption of one or the other and places that breed one don't necessarily breed the other as their suitable habitats are different so:
  • a pig producer should not be selling pigs to Islamic pops, but when grouped as "Livestock" it can happen.

As for fruits, in real life their value can vary a lot depending on culture or location:
  • a rarer fruit should be more expensive outside of it's climate because of transportation cost, but as "fruit" this doesn't happen.
  • Consumption should also vary depending on the culture, or it's food habits to be precise, but with "fruit" it does not matter if whats being eaten is a banana or a lemon.
  • Nobles definitely would want fruits that commoners can't get, so fruits that a region don't have could have an increased weight for their needs, but one can't do something like this only with "fruit".


These are entirely pointless mechanics IMO. You don't need to represent every detail, abstraction helps avoid bloat and lag.

If someone's selling livestock to Muslims, you should assume the livestock they're selling are cows. If someone's selling livestock to Hindus, you should assume the livestock are pigs. There are no "pig producers" just "livestock" producers. They produce whatever livestock is needed.

As for fruit, adding different fruit does not create any new gameplay. Nobody's going to be on the edge of their seat trying to make sure nobles get cherries and peasants get apples. Fruit isn't a long distance trade good, it doesn't add any incentivefor the player to do interesting things like discover, conquer, colonize or trade with new lands. Its just busy work. Just make nobles consume more fruit and peasants consume less fruit.
 
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Same question applies for dates or grapes.

Citrus Fruits like oranges started to be produced in the mediterranean, imported from the East around the late rennaissance IIRC.
They were considered luxury items.
My grandfather in Belgium, born in a family with means, was actually given an orange as a christmas present around the time of WW2 since it was considered luxurious and exotic.
Oranges from Valencia were actually the main of great value by the spanish economy until after ww2.

In PCaesar, berries could be produced in Scandinavia and other northern latitudes to better model the scarce sources of food in that region historically.
I agree that dates are under question. But there is no Grapes resource. Wine is. Highly different thing.

And what happened in ww2 times doesn’t relate to 1337 at all tbh. And I think you can say same thing about any other luxury good.

Not the price or scarcity should dictate the inclusion of materials. But the amount of trade of this material was historically.

We know that there was a huge spice trade race this is why spices should be represented better to mimic it in the game. We know that wine or olives were a highly traded resources by they own. But a separate Citrus Fruits? I think there is no need to separate it.
 
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I love all this, genuinely one of my favourite parts of EU4 was focussing on my trade goods.
My only criticism is that Beer should be a food good as it was used instead of water on a large scale as it was safer to drink. Maybe like 4 food per unit? And the base price should be lower too
 
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What should transport cost be an abstraction of? Resource quantities are arbitrary anyway. 1 boatload of stone is just as difficult to transport as 1 boatload of potatoes. Given that most goods have a transport cost of 1, I'm assuming that's the idea the devs started with before they introduced transport cost, unless quantities are standardized by some other metric that I'm not aware of. Having exceptions to the rule seems unnecessary to me.

i assume/hope the transport cost is for each market nod movement, so something costing 3, with transp cost 1 will cost 4 one "node" away, and 5 for two "nodes" away. this way distance matters, and goods dont just magically move across the world for same cost.

to your question; transport cost could be abstraction of 1. movement time, 2. labor cost.

also, yes, most goods would have cost of 1, but not all, and this will be balanced to make a realistic movement of goods across the globe where we can have a believable world
 
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That's a myth.

And in any case neither water nor beer are food.
While it might not be a myth, the idea to treat it as food is not useful. The beer produced from grain will have less "food" content than the grain itself anyway. And yeah, if water is not a food, then neither should beer.

As for cows or pigs, the problem is that some regions basically breed one type of Livestock but not the other, such as grasslands raising cows but not pigs, as such those regions simply would not sell their "Livestock" to someone that doesn't eat it.
Meh. Too much detail for something that IRL would be adjusted.
BTW, livestock should also cover things like cheese and hides (to make leather).
And one should expect mostly cows/goats/camels for livestock production, these regions are simply meadows that do not produce grains (Or the grain production is secondary, single-RGO locations are also an abstraction after all). Pigs are not a main tradegood anywhere, and apart from cured hams, they produce little of tradable value.
 
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Happy new year to all, and I hope the Tinto team had a good holiday season!

Unfortunately I think it will surprise nobody who has seen me around here to know that I'm more than a little disappointed by this one.

For those not aware, I have a hand in a thread where the community has been working to find more interesting ways of depicting spices than the current setup.
Now to be clear, coming into this thread, I had no illusions that the spice setup would be improved so soon - and I definitely didn't presume to see any of the changes from the above thread implemented at this point, if ever, as much as I'd like to. That is not what I am disappointed to see.

What's making me nervous about more than just the spice situation in the game are the reasons @Johan has given for why they reduced the number of spices down to that point in the first place - reasons which to me seem to indicate there might be bigger issues in the underlying economic simulation, though I'm hoping I'm wrong or that this can be easily fixed.

Variety of spices did not add anything, but a minor performance impact.
I'll get into the the 'did not add anything' part of the quote along with the below two, but to focus on the performance for a moment:

I don't think anyone would argue that adding a number of spices would be worth a major performance cost, but if it is minor as stated, I believe it's worth it for how much it would improve gameplay for trading nations. I don't even think you need all that many goods to start seeing major benefits - just a minimum of three or so, total. With only a few well designed grouped spices you minimize any performance impact or design difficulties while getting most of the benefit. In fact, I personally believe there are major benefits to a grouped system with fewer spice goods representing different related spices over even showing all spices individually. I'm not going to reiterate the reasons for that here, but you can find my arguments for it in the thread above.

You can also find in the thread a list of possible numbers of goods and what spices might be involved in each good for each possibility, from six all the way down to two goods - with the best options being between five to three goods, with some (In my opinion) acceptable tradeoffs as you go to four and then three total goods.

While obviously I'm biased toward the solution that I partially contributed to, I honestly think that almost any setup (Other than maybe a regional spice system which doesn't even reflect the ranges of real world spice distribution and wouldn't make intra-regional trade any more interesting than just having one good) would be a thousand times better than having just one good for spices.

They all functioned exactly the same, so it was just different flavor, and had no major impact on gameplay.
We had like 6+ spices. They got merged as the gameplay impact was 0 from them being different. Prices for them were similarly low in the spice islands, and in most other places they were similar level high.
If they all functioned the same, then there's a deeper issue at play with the system than the spices. They should not be functioning the same if the system is properly modelling supply and demand or monopolies.

If, during testing, monopolies over the fairly narrowly distributed or geographically locked spices (Nutmeg, cloves and vanilla come to mind) where a monopoly could more easily form did not, that's one thing. But if a monopoly forms - as it did historically - that should drive up the prices for those spice goods while not impacting others - making those locations more valuable and incentivizing other nations to try and break or take over the monopoly. Of course it wouldn't happen every game, but I would hope it was tested for, considering that trying to get those monopolies would have been a primary goal for spice-trading nations, or anyone trying for a historical Portuguese, Venetian, Dutch, English or Spanish campaign. In fact, you simply cannot accurately portray the entire Dutch colonization effort without this aspect of play, just for a single example. Similarly, if most of Europe's spice trade at the startdate of the game is going through Venice, from the Mamluks, then the discovery and exploitation of the African Grain Coast should cause the European prices to drop for peppers and peppers alone when Portugal starts to compete in the market. Perhaps the spices weren't properly set up for that scenario if you had Grains of Paradise as a separate good to black or long pepper, but for the first not to have a major impact is odd.

As for supply and demand, it's quite worrying that you say they were the same when all of them produce different quantities, sometimes hugely so, and fluctuated throughout history on separate trajectories. Extremely low-yield spices like Saffron should be worth a ton for the entire timespan of the game due to low supply (Though it should peak with the black death) - and higher yield spices like chili or pepper should slowly drop in price as they're planted across the world as the game goes on. Vanilla's price should slowly grow as demand outstrips supply due to it being unable to naturally produce outside of its native range. That's aside from the fact that all of the spices should be prone to fluctuating separately as colonies are founded and routes to trade spice are discovered. That that this wasn't happening, or wasn't particularly noticeable is something to be concerned about, not only for spices, but the whole system of supply and demand being modeled, here.

A variety of spices being discovered should also create a demand for a variety of spices back in the home countries, and that should drive player (And hopefully AI) action to access sources of said spice through trade, conquest or colonization. This demand shouldn't ruin a nation if you can't source some cloves, but it'd be something worth doing if you can to get a little more satisfaction, and could earn some good revenue to then sell on to other nations as a secondary or even tertiary supplier down the chain.

If none of that was happening - it should be looked at, rather than going with a lackluster single-spice good setup. Again, not only because it makes the gameplay of spice-trading nations that much more boring, but because it presumably speaks to some larger issue with the overall system.



Now aside from that, I think it's clear from the community reaction that I'm not alone in saying that the current system for spices just doesn't seem even nearly satisfactory for either interesting gameplay or historicity - not only for Europe and colonial history, but for the history of African, Asian and American states which traded between one-another, too. For such an important historical resource, it just does not make sense to depict the way it's being depicted and it could have a far more interesting and driving impact on gameplay than you're letting it have, here.

Multiple spices do not just add flavour, anyone can point at a generic spice node in the Maluku isles and say 'that's cloves,' but will it have different worth to the pepper location a few isles away? Will taking all of the locations with cloves be any more worth it than an equal number of ginger locations? Will you be able to compete in the different spice markets that competed historically? Will you be able to show that the intra-Asian trade in spices, as different areas produced different goods? No, you will not, and - to be as blunt - I'm sorry, but that is a total failure on this current design in the most important period in the history of the spice trade, when having different spice goods had a tangible impact on the course of world history. In the first Tinto Talks you stated that one of the primary goals of Project Caesar was a "Believable World". Without more complex spices and market pressure for early exploratory and colonial efforts, you're failing this goal.

For a final point, I think it's worth mentioning that while discussion of the spice trade so often focuses on how European states interact with it, the current setup may in fact harm Asian gameplay even more than that. The incentive to trade in spices between Asian states is practically neutered by the fact that all the regions have exactly the same good. There's no reason for the pepper rich polities in India to trade for cloves from the Maluku isles, or for ginger from East Asia, or vice versa. People forget that the spice trade started in that region - and now so have Paradox, it seems.

Now I know that at least one of the devs have seen the thread, and presumably the team knows about the community's great work in considering better designs (I was only a small part of it). I'm hoping that at least some of that ends up influencing some improvements. Again, I am obviously biased toward the solution I was involved with, but it is not the only one. Any solution is better than the single-spice one we're looking at currently. I hope the team reconsiders the current design and figures out why it is that the market is not reacting appropriately to numerous spices, and that they reconsider putting the effort into a more satisfying, interesting design befitting a project of this scale and of the history it means to allow us to explore.
 
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