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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

climate.png


The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

tropical.png
Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

subtropical.png
Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

oceanic.png
Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

arid.png
Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

cold_arid.png
Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

mediterranean.png
Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

continental.png
Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

arctic.png
Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

desert.png
Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

sparse.png
Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

grasslands.png
Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

farmland.png
Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

flatland.png
Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

deep_ocean.png
Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

coastal_ocean.png
Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

inland_sea.png
Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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ok this is so cool I love it so much. 3 questions tho :

what is precipitation? What effects it has?

why does arid nerf only wheat production? I doubt I could cultivate rice very well in it, same for other water intensive plants

having said this, I assume the little ice age will add (where possible) one more max possible winter level to each climate? Honestly it would be a good representation, easy to implement and quite cool. Idk tho, that was just an hypothesis
 
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My brother visited southern Spain in the summer last year and said "NEVER AGAIN".
I have the same experience of 40 degrees celsius in Monaco. It´s far from perfect for me personally.
But considering the delevopment during the timeline of the game, I guess it´s a reasonable description. And I give it to the developers, it´s their home climate. Just as long as Sweden is OP though!
 
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As a southerner, I have a problem with the (humid) subtropical* climates being more attractive/higher capacity than an oceanic or continental climate. Prior to air conditioning and mosquito control, the humid subtropics were some of the sparsest areas of the world.

Will you be modeling malaria and summer heat? If not, then (humid) subtropical population capacity should be at or below oceanic/continental.

*The term subtropical includes both humid subtropical and Mediterranean, where humid subtropical is dry in the winter and wet in the summer, and Mediterranean is opposite.
 
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As a southerner, I have a problem with the (humid) subtropical* climates being more attractive/higher capacity than an oceanic or continental climate. Prior to air conditioning and mosquito control, the humid subtropics were some of the sparsest areas of the world.

Will you be modeling malaria and summer heat? If not, then (humid) subtropical population capacity should be at or below oceanic/continental.

*The term subtropical includes both humid subtropical and Mediterranean, where humid subtropical is dry in the winter and wet in the summer, and Mediterranean is opposite.
Yeah south-central China and Northern India, famously sparse places
 
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I definitely hope that location pixel count, if not already used in the game, is something that you can use for modding. I don't think there would be a better base for population capacity (or arable land, which I want to change it to) than pixel count.
I've just exposed pixel count of each location as a location_size trigger so modders can do whatever they want with that information.
 
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Just a minor concern, similar to what others have said, about Mediterranean climate being the "best" for population growth modifiers - both historical and modern population densities tend to be highest along tropical monsoon and subtropical climates, globally. See Bangladesh, the Valley of Mexico, southeastern China.
 
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If you heavily develop a specific location could the terrain turn into a "Urbanisation" tile or something? meaning there will be actual cities that can be fought over? also this means these locations can house a lot of pops and industry but produce a very low amount of food.
 
I'm not an expert on climate at all, but I'd guess that the climate in the Mediterranean makes it easier to sustain bigger populations than places like the UK where the climate is colder and the winter harsher,same for subtropical who is also suited for growing stuff
I am not sure that is the case, especially as technology advances. Certainly in modern times the population density is generally higher in places like Southern England, the Low Countries and Western Germany. If the effect is gradually diluted by tech then ok, but if not it seems very strange to me.


population+density+map+2018.png
 
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Subtropical
Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.


Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

Mediterranean climates are often too dry/hot to perform agriculture all year round. Summer is often devastating for lots of crops, especially in Hot Summer Mediterranean Climates. Considering Northern Italy hosted the largest population density of Europe (Subtropical), and so did subtropical Asia, I don't agree Mediterranean should be 'the best' climate in the game.

Oceanic being equal to Continental is also not very realistic.

Oceanic +75%, Mediterranean +100% and Subtropical +125% would make more sense imo.
EDIT: actually, mediterranean should imo be equivalent to oceanic. Looking at which cities/nations line up with oceanic/mediterranean, mediterranean does not look like a much better region vs oceanic, pop-cap wise...
 
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I would suggest doing something with wetlands and food production, it's true that they are not good for agriculture however the opposite is true for hunting and gathering for which they were exceptionally productive. I would suggest doing something like increasing production of wild game in wetlands. Also possibly increasing food production but decreasing stuff like wheat production so they don't scale well. They should be very productive when undeveloped but get worse the more pops you try to support with them.
 
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If you heavily develop a specific location could the terrain turn into a "Urbanisation" tile or something? meaning there will be actual cities that can be fought over? also this means these locations can house a lot of pops and industry but produce a very low amount of food.
Town and city status is already in the game for locations, no need to turn that into terrain.
 
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I request that you change the Mediterranean climate to a temperate or mild climate. The Mediterranean climate can only cover a small part of the world, and its coverage area is not the most populous region. The most populous region is the monsoon climate zone, whether it is China, India, or West Africa. Even Central America is affected by monsoon climate.
If you haven't expressed the monsoon climate, you shouldn't make the Mediterranean climate a special case, but should choose a temperate or mild climate to include more regions and populations
 
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Wetlands might need to have some sort of Ambush mechanic as well. Swamps have historically been quite useful for defence and guerrilla warfare.

Also, why do plateus get a defence bonus? Aren't they flat?
 
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