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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

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The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

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Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

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Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

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Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

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Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

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Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

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Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

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Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

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Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

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Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

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Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

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Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

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Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

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Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

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Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

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Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

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Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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But I find it difficult to understand why the population density index of the Mediterranean is higher, wheat is not the crop with the highest yield, and the Mediterranean climate is not more suitable for human habitation than other temperate and subtropical climates. This is not the planet Gaia.
Why is this?
I don't think balance is a huge concern right now. These modifiers can be changed in 5 seconds.
Obviously monsoon Asia should end up having the best climate for agriculture/sustaining a high population, but we don't know yet what the effects of monsoons will be.
 
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This is pretty inaccurate to be honest.

I propose simplifying the whole system into two distinct climate categories:

Good climate
These are climates I like and they have the weather I like and the temperature is the temperatures I like.
It should have lots of bonuses and be objectively the best.

Bad climate
These are climates that I don't like because the weather is bad and it's too hot or too cold and I don't like them and they are bad and they should have loads of bebuffs and I hate them.
 
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In terms of agricultural production, the advantages of monsoon climate are very obvious. Agricultural output can directly affect the number of people a region can afford. At this point, monsoon climate is indeed more important than other climates.
Indeed, so it seems we agree that a weather system that includes monsoons with positive modifiers would solve the difference in climate zones between southern europe and china/india.
 
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population capacity as a value can still be useful for balance, to clearly indicate when a location is considered to be highly populated.
I agree with this, but what to do with the negative modifier from numerically exceeding population capacity? I think exceeding the population capacity should be a situation where continued population growth will bring famine, which can also better correspond to negative corrections.
 
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I don't understand why a climate with HOT and DRY summer is somehow perfect, isn't it actually a problem for crops? Tho Humid and hot has its own set of mostly health problems
 
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That map is grossly oversimplifying the reality.
The 'pockets' are due to elevation-based differences in climate. That said, the version they shared with us so far is indeed based on the 1991-2020 map, but hurban heat island effects are not visible at this scale.
You can view/download the 1901-1930 climate map here: https://www.gloh2o.org/koppen/

In my climate thread I also mapped out all categories according to Tinto's categories, which clearly demonstrates this pattern:
If it's altitude, why isn't the higher altitude Taihang Mountains dry and cold, while the lower altitude Hebei region and Fen River Valley are?
 
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Maybe it could be made so that not only climate alone decides on what the maximum of Winter is but that some topography can have an impact on it to. For example I would suggest Mountains to modify how cold a winter can be by +1 level. This would make places like the alps more realistic because despite being relatively far south in europe and having continental climate the winters there often are much harsher than in flat areas further north.
 
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I agree with this, but what to do with the negative modifier from numerically exceeding population capacity? I think exceeding the population capacity should be a situation where continued population growth will bring famine, which can also better correspond to negative corrections.
But why tie famine to population capacity, rather than food production? If food is simulated in the game, why shouldn't it be what measures how much population you can sustain?
A location being above population capacity could have various other negative effects, such as reduced stability/increased unrest and less efficient food production.
 
Maybe it could be made so that not only climate alone decides on what the maximum of Winter is but that some topography can have an impact on it to. For example I would suggest Mountains to modify how cold a winter can be by +1 level. This would make places like the alps more realistic because despite being relatively far south in europe and having continental climate the winters there often are much harsher than in flat areas further north.
No, there are no winters in the Andes or mountain tops of Ethiopia and mountains already impact climates anyway... like they are continental because they are mountains, you are double dipping the fact they are mountains
 
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For all the people referencing demographic data regarding which climates should have highest pop capacities: climate is a very, very limited factor in where populations ultimately settled and how/why they grew especially when dealing with nuances between subtropical and Mediterranean. Also population capacity is different from a snapshot of populations anyway and we'll very likely see higher populations in climates with worse population capacity.

That said, population capacity being directly tied to climate is a bit odd considering we already have mechanics for pop growth based on food which is ultimately what determined population capacities.
 
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But why tie famine to population capacity, rather than food production? If food is simulated in the game, why shouldn't it be what measures how much population you can sustain?
A location being above population capacity could have various other negative effects, such as reduced stability/increased unrest and less efficient food production.
However, it is unrealistic to have higher population capacity in areas with smaller populations. Not to mention, due to the granularity, we may get an ideal city like Hokkaido.:confused:
 
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I like the design of the new icons, but I'm afraid they might not be very readable, especially on smaller screens and for visually impaired people. For example, the icons for desert, ocean, and mountains look almost the same, as do those for tropical and subtropical climate. Adding a bit of color could really help make them more distinct and easier to read at a glance.
 
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I live in a Mediterranean climate, and I find the buffs a bit too strong like Population Capacity +150%, also the Mediterranean climate can for sure have mild winters.
Remember warm summer mediterranean(colder version of hot summer mediterranean) is classified as oceanic, so I think the remaining mediterranean shouldn't have impactful winters?
 
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