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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

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The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

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Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

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Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

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Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

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Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

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Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

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Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

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Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

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Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

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Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

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Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

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Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

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Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

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Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

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Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


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Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

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Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

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Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

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Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

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Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

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Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

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Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

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Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

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Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

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Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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A person without geographical knowledge would think that more people can survive in Mediterranean than subtropical. These settings, which are full of errors and loopholes, make people feel angry and speechless.
 
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That map is grossly oversimplifying the reality.
The 'pockets' are due to elevation-based differences in climate. That said, the version they shared with us so far is indeed based on the 1991-2020 map, but hurban heat island effects are not visible at this scale.
You can view/download the 1901-1930 climate map here: https://www.gloh2o.org/koppen/

In my climate thread I also mapped out all categories according to Tinto's categories, which clearly demonstrates this pattern:
But there's still some mistakes, like in your map, Xi'an is in continental climate, even in subtropical climate (dark green in the middle), Tinto map change there into cold arid. (in your map, it's just in the north of the River Wei, but Xi'an is in the south)

And also, climate in 1350 was warmer than 1900, so I think it should be changed, especially which is one of the most important city in China history.
 
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If it's altitude, why isn't the higher altitude Taihang Mountains dry and cold, while the lower altitude Hebei region and Fen River Valley are?

Taihang is Dwa/Dwb, that part of Hebei region is BSK

@zeruosi

Group D: Continental climates​

Continental climates have at least one month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)) and at least one month averaging above 10 °C (50 °F).

  • Dfa = Hot-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)), at least one month's average temperature above 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled).
  • Dfb = Warm-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)), all months with average temperatures below 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled).
  • Dfc = Subarctic climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)) and 1–3 months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled).
  • Dfd = Extremely cold subarctic climate; coldest month averaging below −38 °C (−36.4 °F) and 1–3 months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled).
  • Dwa = Monsoon-influenced hot-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)), at least one month's average temperature above 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least ten times as much rain in the wettest month of summer as in the driest month of winter.
  • Dwb = Monsoon-influenced warm-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)), all months with average temperatures below 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least ten times as much rain in the wettest month of summer as in the driest month of winter.
  • Dwc = Monsoon-influenced subarctic climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)) and 1–3 months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least ten times as much rain in the wettest month of summer as in the driest month of winter.
  • Dwd = Monsoon-influenced extremely cold subarctic climate; coldest month averaging below −38 °C (−36.4 °F) and 1–3 months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least ten times as much rain in the wettest month of summer as in the driest month of winter.
  • Dsa = Mediterranean-influenced hot-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)), average temperature of the warmest month above 22 °C (71.6 °F) and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least three times as much precipitation in the wettest month of winter as in the driest month of summer, and the driest month of summer receives less than 30 mm (1.2 in).
  • Dsb = Mediterranean-influenced warm-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)), average temperature of the warmest month below 22 °C (71.6 °F) and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least three times as much precipitation in the wettest month of winter as in the driest month of summer, and the driest month of summer receives less than 30 mm (1.2 in).
  • Dsc = Mediterranean-influenced subarctic climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (26.6 °F)) and 1–3 months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least three times as much precipitation in the wettest month of winter as in the driest month of summer, and the driest month of summer receives less than 30 mm (1.2 in).
  • Dsd = Mediterranean-influenced extremely cold subarctic climate; coldest month averaging below −38 °C (−36.4 °F) and 1–3 months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least three times as much precipitation in the wettest month of winter as in the driest month of summer, and the driest month of summer receives less than 30 mm (1.2 in).

Cold semi-arid climates​

Regions with cold semi-arid climatesSemi-arid climate in Montana, USA.
Cold semi-arid climates (type "BSk") tend to be located in elevated portions of temperate zones generally from the mid-30s to low 50s latitudes, typically bordering a humid continental climate or a Mediterranean climate. They are also typically found in continental interiors some distance from large bodies of water. Cold semi-arid climates usually feature warm to hot dry summers, though their summers are typically not quite as hot as those of hot semi-arid climates. Unlike hot semi-arid climates, areas with cold semi-arid climates tend to have cold and possibly freezing winters. These areas usually see some snowfall during the winter, though snowfall is much lower than at locations at similar latitudes with more humid climates.[citation needed]

Areas featuring cold semi-arid climates tend to have higher elevations than areas with hot semi-arid climates, and tend to feature major temperature swings between day and night, sometimes by as much as 20 °C (36 °F) or more. These large diurnal temperature variations are seldom seen in hot semi-arid climates. Cold semi-arid climates at higher latitudes tend to have dry winters and wetter summers, while cold semi-arid climates at lower latitudes tend to have precipitation patterns more akin to Mediterranean climates, with dry summers, relatively wet winters, and even wetter springs and autumns.[citation needed]

Cold semi-arid climates are most commonly found in central Asia and the western US, as well as the Middle East and other parts of Asia. However, they can also be found in Northern Africa, South Africa, sections of South America, sections of interior southern Australia (e.g. Kalgoorlie and Mildura) and sections of Europe.

I don't know the details, but I suppose in winter (dry) cold winds enter from Siberia, in Summer humid air rains out in the Monsoon regions, leaving almost nothing for more Northern China. Add elevation differences in the mix and you get different climate expressions.

I can encourage you to check out this weather pattern viewer (also has chinese language option at the bottom) https://earth.nullschool.net/#2024/...pitable_water/orthographic=-242.59,34.30,1660
 
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I've just exposed pixel count of each location as a location_size trigger so modders can do whatever they want with that information.
Thank you. Saves me from having to write a script, though I'm not perfectly happy with the fact that I can't make it scale based on latitude (to account for projection distortions).
 
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Thank you. Saves me from having to write a script, though I'm not perfectly happy with the fact that I can't make it scale based on latitude (to account for projection distortions).
not ideal but if your climate is overly granular(beyond Koppen, we need highland equatorial climate!) you could partially offset that there, as climates more likely to be far from the equator could have a small negative multplier backed in
 
probably not gonna be feasible
So the only option to combat those negative modifiers is to construct buildings, like hospitals that increase lifespan? If so, how big can harsh-climate city become in late-game with maximum investments in it?
I just really want to build some megapolices beyond the polar circle...
 
A person without geographical knowledge would think that more people can survive in Mediterranean than subtropical. These settings, which are full of errors and loopholes, make people feel angry and speechless.
There's no reason to get worked up over pre-beta modifier values. There's nothing that's easier to change than something like this. So many values that have been shown in these dev diaries will be changed over and over before the game releases.
 
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Taihang is Dwa/Dwb, that part of Hebei region is BSK

I don't know the details, but I suppose in winter (dry) cold winds enter from Siberia, in Summer humid air rains out in the Monsoon regions, leaving almost nothing for more Northern China.

I can encourage you to check out this weather pattern viewer (also has chinese language option at the bottom) https://earth.nullschool.net/#2024/...pitable_water/orthographic=-242.59,34.30,1660
Once again, due to the damn firewall issue, I can't even access Wikipedia!
So I may need you to provide the full name outside of the abbreviation.
And, thank you very much for sharing the climate simulator. Fortunately, it can be opened:)
 
But why tie famine to population capacity, rather than food production? If food is simulated in the game, why shouldn't it be what measures how much population you can sustain?
A location being above population capacity could have various other negative effects, such as reduced stability/increased unrest and less efficient food production.

I fear they have run into the same problem as IR: Food for balance and gameplay reasons is too plentiful and there is no way it would limit population so they need to have some sort of arbitrary soft cap, leaving foor more as a limit to city population rather than just the country over all as the country as a whole will always provide enough to the market or you can always import more.

I wonder if a mod will be able to fix this issue without breaking the AI and create mass starvation because the AI is incapable of securing food
 
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