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Tinto Talks #5 - March 27th, 2024

Welcome to the fifth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design for our upcoming top secret game with the codename ‘Project Caesar.’


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The state is me! Oh, you meant E-state, sorry.. not me ..

Today we will go into detail about one of the core systems in the game, and talk about how estates work.

First of all, there are four estates in Project Caesar, which mostly map 1 to 1 with a social class: Nobility, Clergy, Burghers and the Commoners. There is also the Crown, which represents the state itself.

Each estate gains power based on the amount of population belonging to the estate, which is also modifiable by local attributes of where the population is, where some nobles may have very high power in a certain area, or whether a specific city has entrenched burgher rights there.

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This is the estates part of the government view, where you can see their power, current satisfaction, the equilibrium its trending toward, and what privileges it currently has.

Every 1,000 nobles gives +50 estate power to their estate, while 1,000 peasants merely give +0.05 estate power as default. Then these are modified locally in every location, as mentioned above, and then in the entire country by laws, reforms and most notably the privileges that you have given the estates.

The total power of all the 4 estates and the crown then together all add up to 100%, which is the effective power they have.

Depending on your crown power, you either get a scaling penalty or scaling bonus, on aspects like the cost of revoking estate privileges, the cost of changing policies in laws, the efficiency of the cabinet, the expected costs of the court, and other things. If your crown power is weak, you need to have the estates really satisfied, or you will not get much out of any parliament you try to call.

Each of the four estates has a current satisfaction and an equilibrium it will move towards. Some estates, and some countries, will have the estate satisfaction moving quicker to the equilibrium than others. Each estate has 2 factors per type of estate in which their satisfaction impacts the entire country, where satisfaction above 50% gives a scaling bonus, and below, a scaling penalty.

If the satisfaction is below 25%, this estate will not provide any levies. Most importantly, the estate satisfaction also impacts the satisfaction of the pops that belong to that estate, possibly creating rebel factions or even civil wars.
  • Nobility impacts your prestige gain and your counterespionage.
  • Clergy impacts your research speed and your diplomatic reputation.
  • Burghers impact your merchant power and the production efficiency.
  • Commoner impacts your food production and your stability costs.

So what impacts the satisfaction equilibrium of an estate? The privileges they get, the current stability, some reforms may impact them, some laws may, how you tax them, and much more. Some examples include clergy being happier with higher religious unity or burghers liking having more market centers in your country.

# estate privileges
Estate Privileges then? You may feel forced to grant privileges to estates to be able to tax them more, and you may be forced to grant privileges to get their support in parliament. All privileges impact the power of their estate, and many also increase their satisfaction equilibrium. They all have some impact on gameplay fitting the privilege, and often they also impact a societal value of their country.

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WiP ui, temporary graphics and no icons etc.

There are many different privileges, and many unique ones depending on where and what type of country you play.

We mentioned taxes before, and while this is not the development diary where we go into details about the economic system, it is important to mention that the estates of a country have wealth that is increased by the amount of money that you have not taken from them in taxes. Rich estates will use their wealth on many things, primarily to invest into things that benefit them, but will often also build things that also benefit the country.

Next week we will talk about a few new concepts that are rather new to this game that have not been present in previous games, as we will talk about proximity, control and maritime presence, all concepts that need to be talked about in detail, before we go into the economy system.
 
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Please don't forget to also add the Principality of Muzaka, which at the 1337, was ruled by Andrea Muzaka II, one of the most competent Albanian military figures in history (though of course he does not reach anywhere near Skanderbeg). He is known for his resistance against Stephan Dusan's incursions in Albania, for his victory in the battle of the Pelister mountain against the Serbs, for leading the Principality of Muzaka to its territorial and political peak, etc. Muzaka not being added would be an insult to Albanian history, so please add them.
I find it weird that Albania is apparently united in this game when Skanderbeg was the one to unite the Albanians in the first place. Maybe this is still subject to change? Nevertheless I think we should push for Albanian historical accuracy and it should be represented in the map by no only the Muzaka principality, but by the other ones as well such as Kastrioti, Arianiti, etc. Or maybe having a united Albania is a design choice because otherwise they would be too weak and subject to being conquered early on. If so, I hope there are mechanics to ensure that small countries and OPMs actually stand a chance like they did in real life. Hoping to see some improvement to Albania. Also, it should 100% be red colour, anything other than that is unacceptable.
 
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I find it weird that Albania is apparently united in this game when Skanderbeg was the one to unite the Albanians in the first place. Maybe this is still subject to change? Nevertheless I think we should push for Albanian historical accuracy and it should be represented in the map by no only the Muzaka principality, but by the other ones as well such as Kastrioti, Arianiti, etc. Or maybe having a united Albania is a design choice because otherwise they would be too weak and subject to being conquered early on. If so, I hope there are mechanics to ensure that small countries and OPMs actually stand a chance like they did in real life. Hoping to see some improvement to Albania. Also, it should 100% be red colour, anything other than that is unacceptable.
The only Albanian principalities as of 1337 were Topia, Muzaka, Matrënga and Gropa.
Personally, I believe it would be very fun for the Albanian lords to, like historically, compete for the title of "Dominus Albaniae", but they should start off allied, like they were historically when Serbia invaded.
As for the color of Albania, they picked yellow to represent Topia, but we should have a red Muzaka south of Topia.
 
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I find it weird that Albania is apparently united in this game when Skanderbeg was the one to unite the Albanians in the first place. Maybe this is still subject to change? Nevertheless I think we should push for Albanian historical accuracy and it should be represented in the map by no only the Muzaka principality, but by the other ones as well such as Kastrioti, Arianiti, etc. Or maybe having a united Albania is a design choice because otherwise they would be too weak and subject to being conquered early on. If so, I hope there are mechanics to ensure that small countries and OPMs actually stand a chance like they did in real life. Hoping to see some improvement to Albania. Also, it should 100% be red colour, anything other than that is unacceptable.
I fully agree with showing principalities. Map has many locations and is very detailed. So I see no reason why all principalites can't be shown. Although I don't mind unifed Albania for gameplay purposes but it feels a bit too game-y and oversimplifed to do, especially considering the map is very detailed so it would be just an odd design choice.
 
I find it weird that Albania is apparently united in this game when Skanderbeg was the one to unite the Albanians in the first place. Maybe this is still subject to change? Nevertheless I think we should push for Albanian historical accuracy and it should be represented in the map by no only the Muzaka principality, but by the other ones as well such as Kastrioti, Arianiti, etc. Or maybe having a united Albania is a design choice because otherwise they would be too weak and subject to being conquered early on. If so, I hope there are mechanics to ensure that small countries and OPMs actually stand a chance like they did in real life. Hoping to see some improvement to Albania. Also, it should 100% be red colour, anything other than that is unacceptable.
Btw I also think maroon could work as a colour of Albania on the map, but yeah anything else is just weird.
 
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Borders of Serbia are wrong here. Tzar Dushan in 1334 peace treaty with the Byzantines gained possession of Ohrid, Prilep, Strumica, Siderokastron, Čemren, and Prosek. That would be Ohrid, Kocani, Strumica, Melnik on the map. Citing The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century By John V. A. Fine (jr.), John Van Antwerp page 288. Easily found on google books.
Not having these provinces in Serbia can greatly affect the strategy of Serbia in the game, and it’s not historically accurate.
 
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Borders of Serbia are wrong here. Tzar Dushan in 1334 peace treaty with the Byzantines gained possession of Ohrid, Prilep, Strumica, Siderokastron, Čemren, and Prosek. That would be Ohrid, Kocani, Strumica, Melnik on the map. Citing The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century By John V. A. Fine (jr.), John Van Antwerp page 288. Easily found on google books.
Not having these provinces in Serbia can greatly affect the strategy of Serbia in the game, and it’s not historically accurate.
It'll probably need to wait until the Tinto Maps about the Balkans, though I will say that there has been some improvement since this post in TT#14 Ohrid belongs to Serbia.

Strumica doesn't, though, which just looks odd.

As for Melnik, there's a later point in the same source that Hrelja was trying to take Melnik from the Byzantines during the outset of the civil war, so I would argue that it should not be ceded to the Serbs in 1337.
 
It'll probably need to wait until the Tinto Maps about the Balkans, though I will say that there has been some improvement since this post in TT#14 Ohrid belongs to Serbia.

Strumica doesn't, though, which just looks odd.

As for Melnik, there's a later point in the same source that Hrelja was trying to take Melnik from the Byzantines during the outset of the civil war, so I would argue that it should not be ceded to the Serbs in 1337.
He was holding Siderokastron which is south of Melnik and at the location that is mapped as Melnik. Melnik is in the blue part of the province wich is left unnamed. I think they wrongfully named it Melnik and the part they gave him is Melnik and was actually held by Byzantines at the time.
 
Please re-consider the map color of Ottomans. I know we get them Green in almost every game, including HOI4 with Turkey, but still, in some of the most popular games, we have a mod to change their color to Red. I believe if Ottomans were to choose a map color for their nation in a game today, or a regular map back then, it would not have been Green. I'm a Turk and I stand by this. Thanks a lot for this incredible game you're developing.
 
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Please re-consider the map color of Ottomans. I know we get them Green in almost every game, including HOI4 with Turkey, but still, in some of the most popular games, we have a mod to change their color to Red. I believe if Ottomans were to choose a map color for their nation in a game today, or a regular map back then, it would not have been Green. I'm a Turk and I stand by this. Thanks a lot for this incredible game you're developing.
Maybe they can just switch colours with germiyanids
 
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So I am just reading these now as I didn't want to get excited but i gues that boat has sailed. One thing I think that needs to be in or should be in with this system is a way to gang up on one faction if the others are aligned. The problem with EU 4 estates now is they do dumb things at the wrong time. It doesn't make sense for nobles to make some outlandish demands during a peasants revolt thats going to weaken your ability to keep their heads of the chopping block too. It would be cool if you have three of the 4 estates or whatever in good graces and one goes off the rails that you could use the others to pressure them to being not crazy. Or if you can make some vague promise down the road that you could maybe not live up to but use to buy time and then settle it when you could.
I realize both those could be abused and right now in EU 4 you do get that green option when your ruler is good at something.
the pops and estates make me fear never ending rebellions that I am constantly having to chase down. Also the ui should be changed to peasants not commoners their peasants and not going to be anything other then cannon fodder (thats a joke).
 
Playing as Muscovy, or perhaps as any player, will I have the option of eventually implementing the Table of Ranks to rein in the nobility?

The pops got me thinking about how much more information a grand strategy game typically provides on one's own country compared to what leaders historically would've had access to. There's administrative inefficiency, sure, but not in the form of an administrative fog of war. I don't know if, even today, the Greek government knows exactly how many people live on Samos, but if you start the game as Genoa, you know for a fact that it's 2,874. And I'm not really criticizing this or any other game for this, because it's a small thing, but what if that fog of war existed with regard to something so precise? What if the player had only an estimate of the population of every location under their control, and an even rougher estimate of the population of other locations?

What's so fun about playing with incomplete information, you may ask? Well, you can make getting better information part of the gameplay. The more direct your control over your locations, or the more frequent your interactions with foreign ones, the better your estimate.

Then there's the ultimate fog of war remover, the census, which can be local or national. Except people don't like the census, because they know it will be used to more effectively raise taxes or levies. And it's worth mentioning that there's at least one religion (Judaism) which takes a dim view of the census.
 
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Playing as Muscovy, or perhaps as any player, will I have the option of eventually implementing the Table of Ranks to rein in the nobility?

The pops got me thinking about how much more information a grand strategy game typically provides on one's own country compared to what leaders historically would've had access to. There's administrative inefficiency, sure, but not in the form of an administrative fog of war. I don't know if, even today, the Greek government knows exactly how many people live on Samos, but if you start the game as Genoa, you know for a fact that it's 2,874. And I'm not really criticizing this or any other game for this, because it's a small thing, but what if that fog of war existed with regard to something so precise? What if the player had only an estimate of the population of every location under their control, and an even rougher estimate of the population of other locations?

What's so fun about playing with incomplete information, you may ask? Well, you can make getting better information part of the gameplay. The more direct your control over your locations, or the more frequent your interactions with foreign ones, the better your estimate.

Then there's the ultimate fog of war remover, the census, which can be local or national. Except people don't like the census, because they know it will be used to more effectively raise taxes or levies. And it's worth mentioning that there's at least one religion (Judaism) which takes a dim view of the census.
I’d love that. That’d be great
 
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Ironically, I've never really played MEIOU beyond testing it. I do have employees from the mod, and I really enjoy talking with @gigau and his friends at every Pdxcon.

i saw you said this a few times in years. you're talking about not playing the MEIOU as if it's something to be proud of. what would happen if you played it? would you lose something from your charisma? if i was @gigau i would stop talking to you.

Yes, its a toggle.

I have it off, as I hate that look when its colored.

i hope this setting can be changed in game menu. afaik right now you can only change this setting when you start a new campaign and cant change afterwards. also i hope we will get a new game engine that allows us change things without restarting the game every time like it does in eu4.
 
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