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Tinto Talks #59 - 16th of April 2025

Hello and welcome once again to our super secret Project Caesar Tinto Talks. I will be your host this time, where we will be talking about the mechanics of Catholicism and its associated Catholic Church International Organization.

Here’s an overview of the religion itself:
Catholicism Tooltip.png


One thing to highlight here besides all the other effects, is that Catholic countries are not able to tax their clergy at all by default, although there may be other things modifying this on top of it. However, the clergy won’t necessarily swim in money, as that has to be instead paid to the Papacy directly in the form of a tithe.
Tithe.png


Another key aspect of Catholicism is that all Catholic countries will belong to the Catholic Church IO:
Catholic Church Map.png

Catholic Church IO pannel.png


You can see here that there are quite many countries belonging to it (the total list is expandable and scrollable), with some of them having some special statuses. For Bishopric and Military Order these are self-explanatory, but the Curia and Cardinals need some more information.

The decisions concerning the Catholic Church are taken by the Curia, which is composed of Cardinals. In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building. Each Cardinal Seat will grant its owner country a Cardinal, which the country can use to influence the decisions of the Curia (more on that later). Countries can have more than one Cardinal Seat and thus more than one Cardinal, that’s why in the panel you can see that there’s 7 countries in the Curia but a total of 16 Cardinals among them.
Cardinal Seat.png


Another aspect of the Catholic Church IO is its doctrines, represented by a set of laws. These laws are not something that’s easily changed, as it’s what defines the core values of Catholicism, but some important events will be able to shape them, like for example the Council of Trent (more on that in future Tinto Talks). Here are some of these laws effects:
Papal Authority.png

Purchase of Indulgence.png

Marriage of Priests.png

Persecution of Witchcraft.png


Next to the Doctrines, we have the Papal Bulls. These are actions that any Catholic country can choose to propose, but only those in the Curia can vote on whether to pass them or refuse them. Here are the possible bulls with some examples:
Papal Bulls.png

Illius Qui Se Pro Divini.png

In Coena Domini.png


When voting on a Papal Bull, the interface changes slightly to show how many cardinals support each option. It goes without saying that all the cardinals that a country has will be assigned to vote for the same option, so the amount of cardinals a country has is effectively its amount of votes.
Papal Bulls Vote.png


Besides the Papal Bulls, there’s also the action of Excommunication, available to all countries of the Curia, that if approved, will get the excommunicated country some very nasty modifiers and allow for a special casus belli.

Excommunication Effects.png


The Catholic Church also has some extra aspects in the form of Saints and Holy Sites. Saints are characters of a country that have been elevated to sainthood. A country can choose to canonize any of its previous rulers, and they will get benefits depending on the abilities of such character. Holy Sites are special locations to the Catholic faith, giving some extra income to their owner due to the affluence of faithful in them.
Saints.png

Holy Sites.png


Outside the Catholic Church per se and instead in the main religion panel, there are some extra religious actions available to certain countries, besides the already mentioned option to canonize a character.
Religious Actions.png


  • Demand Apostolic Tax is an action exclusive to the Papacy, in which they will demand extra payment from those countries with the Apostolic Tax privilege enabled.
  • Request Aid is an action exclusive to the military orders, in which they can ask to petition support to the Pope for their infrastructure, military, or coffers.
  • Placitum Regium is an action available to kingdoms or empires that gives them some extra crown power at the expense of relations with the Papacy.

One last thing to mention here is that, as you can see, Catholicism also has Reform Desire. However, in contrast to some other of our titles that also present this value, here it is not a ticking clock for the Reformation, but instead something that will come into play in the Council of Trent. As such, you will have to wait a bit for a further explanation on it.

And that is all for today, next week we will resolve these cliffhangers by taking a further look at what Catholicism has in store after the start of the game, including the situations of the Western Schism, Reformation, and the Council of Trent. On the other hand, in this week’s Tinto Flavor we will go directly to the head of Catholicism by taking a look at the flavor content for the Papal States. Also, remember that this week’s Tinto Flavour will be on Thursday, as this week is Good Friday and the Papal States would be too busy to attend their own Tinto Flavor then (oh, and it’s also a holiday).

See you next time!
 
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-'I wish Spain was refered to by an accurate name'
-'Duhh, cringe, why make a suggestion? You shouldn't care about how it is refered to as, Arch-barony of Spain is a perfectly fine title'.
I'd prefer "Kingdom of Spain", which is also what would be the typical form in English. All these special snowflake names often just muddle the waters on the map. Calling this not-uncommon name "cringe" is just silly, given that it is merely a bit anachronistic for Spain.
Of course, most minors are just "County of XXX", even though they also do have proper names. This becomes more obvious, when you give special treatment to others.
 
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The Pope, not the Papal States
If the Pope was a bishop, then it stands to reason that the lands he ruled was a Bishopric.
 
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Good overview of the Catholic Church.
 
I'd prefer "Kingdom of Spain", which is also what would be the typical form in English. All these special snowflake names often just muddle the waters on the map. Calling this not-uncommon name "cringe" is just silly, given that it is merely a bit anachronistic for Spain.
Of course, most minors are just "County of XXX", even though they also do have proper names. This becomes more obvious, when you give special treatment to others.
Yes, Spain, the strongest european power for like a third of the game's timeframe, only rivaled at its height (when it should in fact be called a 'monarchy' on the map) by the ottomans and the Ming, it's literally the same in this time period as some random irrelevant german barony, pure genious argument dude.
 
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I took note of this as a possible option to consider.
What about Spain? They were clearly Catholic but also an Empire since 1492. Will they be blocked from becoming an Empire because of it? That doesn't seem right to me. Or Portuguese Empire that was a colonial Empire since 1415.
Will there be a distinction between these colonial Empires who clearly were Catholic but also empires? Will they get 'exemptions' or maybe laws that can change the 'no Empires but the HRE'?
 
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What about Spain? They were clearly Catholic but also an Empire since 1492. Will they be blocked from becoming an Empire because of it? That doesn't seem right to me. Or Portuguese Empire that was a colonial Empire since 1415.
Will there be a distinction between these colonial Empires who clearly were Catholic but also empires? Will they get 'exemptions' or maybe laws that can change the 'no Empires but the HRE'?
I mean technically they were never officially empires, calling them empires is purely coloqial due to their large tracks of land, officially they were a collection of kingdoms and other royal titles and a kingdom respectively
 
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What about Spain? They were clearly Catholic but also an Empire since 1492. Will they be blocked from becoming an Empire because of it? That doesn't seem right to me. Or Portuguese Empire that was a colonial Empire since 1415.
Will there be a distinction between these colonial Empires who clearly were Catholic but also empires? Will they get 'exemptions' or maybe laws that can change the 'no Empires but the HRE'?
Spain and Portugal weren't formally empires. The closest thing would be the title of 'Catholic monarch' carried by the rulers of Spain, which sounds grander than king, but still not formally emperors (other than Charles V who was the actual emperor of the hre).
 
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He ruled a bishopric and other states hence the name Papal States
And? That doesn't exactly stop the Papal States from being a Bishopric.
 
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And? That doesn't exactly stop the Papal States from being a Bishopric.
After the land was donated by Pepin, thus forming the Papal States, the Pope became a temporal ruler in those lands, not a spiritual one. So although the Pope is the spiritual leader of the Bishopric of Rome, I don't think Papal States is itself a bishopric.
 
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Wouldn't it be better if the Papal State became a building based country after they loose all their land? Just giving them land somewhere else feels kind of weird. And this building could move around if necessary. If for example the ottomans take Rome, the pope might move back to Avignon.
 
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Like many have said, cardinals being abstracted as just buildings, especially buildings that any catholic can just build whenever, feels pretty bad. The building requirement as it stands now is fine to represent the cost of getting one and maintaining them, but the abstraction is just too far in my opinion. This mechanic in particular just stands out from the "believable world" aspect of the game.

1. Having them be represented by buildings instead of characters just seems weird and gamey, since they seem like a natural fit for the character system - it could allow for things like putting them in your cabinet for more good-boy points with the pope. At the very least, having a character that gets promoted upon the building's completion would add a lot of flavour

2. The pope and curia having no control or even influence over the system also feels very ahistorical, weird, and exploitable. Could I go to war with the pope, plunder his cities, then use that money to buy up the curia even though the pope hates me? It seems like, at the minimum, you should have to have a certain level of opinion with the pope, or at least pay him some of the construction cost.

The rest of the system looks amazing, it's already a huge step up from EU4 as is (like literally everything that's been revealed). Super excited for the game!
 
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Hello and welcome once again to our super secret Project Caesar Tinto Talks. I will be your host this time, where we will be talking about the mechanics of Catholicism and its associated Catholic Church International Organization.

Here’s an overview of the religion itself:
View attachment 1281815

One thing to highlight here besides all the other effects, is that Catholic countries are not able to tax their clergy at all by default, although there may be other things modifying this on top of it. However, the clergy won’t necessarily swim in money, as that has to be instead paid to the Papacy directly in the form of a tithe.
View attachment 1281816

Another key aspect of Catholicism is that all Catholic countries will belong to the Catholic Church IO:
View attachment 1281817
View attachment 1281818

You can see here that there are quite many countries belonging to it (the total list is expandable and scrollable), with some of them having some special statuses. For Bishopric and Military Order these are self-explanatory, but the Curia and Cardinals need some more information.

The decisions concerning the Catholic Church are taken by the Curia, which is composed of Cardinals. In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building. Each Cardinal Seat will grant its owner country a Cardinal, which the country can use to influence the decisions of the Curia (more on that later). Countries can have more than one Cardinal Seat and thus more than one Cardinal, that’s why in the panel you can see that there’s 7 countries in the Curia but a total of 16 Cardinals among them.
View attachment 1281819

Another aspect of the Catholic Church IO is its doctrines, represented by a set of laws. These laws are not something that’s easily changed, as it’s what defines the core values of Catholicism, but some important events will be able to shape them, like for example the Council of Trent (more on that in future Tinto Talks). Here are some of these laws effects:
View attachment 1281820
View attachment 1281821
View attachment 1281822
View attachment 1281823

Next to the Doctrines, we have the Papal Bulls. These are actions that any Catholic country can choose to propose, but only those in the Curia can vote on whether to pass them or refuse them. Here are the possible bulls with some examples:
View attachment 1281826
View attachment 1281827
View attachment 1281828

When voting on a Papal Bull, the interface changes slightly to show how many cardinals support each option. It goes without saying that all the cardinals that a country has will be assigned to vote for the same option, so the amount of cardinals a country has is effectively its amount of votes.View attachment 1281829

Besides the Papal Bulls, there’s also the action of Excommunication, available to all countries of the Curia, that if approved, will get the excommunicated country some very nasty modifiers and allow for a special casus belli.

View attachment 1281830

The Catholic Church also has some extra aspects in the form of Saints and Holy Sites. Saints are characters of a country that have been elevated to sainthood. A country can choose to canonize any of its previous rulers, and they will get benefits depending on the abilities of such character. Holy Sites are special locations to the Catholic faith, giving some extra income to their owner due to the affluence of faithful in them.
View attachment 1281831
View attachment 1281832

Outside the Catholic Church per se and instead in the main religion panel, there are some extra religious actions available to certain countries, besides the already mentioned option to canonize a character.
View attachment 1281833

  • Demand Apostolic Tax is an action exclusive to the Papacy, in which they will demand extra payment from those countries with the Apostolic Tax privilege enabled.
  • Request Aid is an action exclusive to the military orders, in which they can ask to petition support to the Pope for their infrastructure, military, or coffers.
  • Placitum Regium is an action available to kingdoms or empires that gives them some extra crown power at the expense of relations with the Papacy.

One last thing to mention here is that, as you can see, Catholicism also has Reform Desire. However, in contrast to some other of our titles that also present this value, here it is not a ticking clock for the Reformation, but instead something that will come into play in the Council of Trent. As such, you will have to wait a bit for a further explanation on it.

And that is all for today, next week we will resolve these cliffhangers by taking a further look at what Catholicism has in store after the start of the game, including the situations of the Western Schism, Reformation, and the Council of Trent. On the other hand, in this week’s Tinto Flavor we will go directly to the head of Catholicism by taking a look at the flavor content for the Papal States. Also, remember that this week’s Tinto Flavour will be on Thursday, as this week is Good Friday and the Papal States would be too busy to attend their own Tinto Flavor then (oh, and it’s also a holiday).

See you next time!
Prince-Bishopric of Gurk was forgoten to be added to the list of Bishopric.

1744906832178.png


1744906656128.png
 
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Screenshot_20250417_202417_Chrome.jpg
From what I gather these flags up here are supposed to be the flags of three of the five holy order countries that are vassal of the Teutonic order, if that's the case then they are wrong, I have no idea where you took them from but these down here are the Coas used by the three dioceces at the time and fit better as flags than these three above
Screenshot_20250417_202631_Chrome.jpg
The flags of Warmia and the Livonian order seems fine as they are
 
View attachment 1282498
From what I gather these flags up here are supposed to be the flags of three of the five holy order countries that are vassal of the Teutonic order, if that's the case then they are wrong, I have no idea where you took them from but these down here are the Coas used by the three dioceces at the time and fit better as flags than these three above
View attachment 1282497
The flags of Warmia and the Livonian order seems fine as they are
Screenshot_20250417_213726_Chrome.jpg
These guys flags should be "inverted" as the staff is facing the weong side
Screenshot_20250417_213955_Chrome.jpg
Also I'm pretty sure that some of the bishoprics like Cammin either aren't shown in the IO list or have a wrong flag
 
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