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Tinto Talks #59 - 16th of April 2025

Hello and welcome once again to our super secret Project Caesar Tinto Talks. I will be your host this time, where we will be talking about the mechanics of Catholicism and its associated Catholic Church International Organization.

Here’s an overview of the religion itself:
Catholicism Tooltip.png


One thing to highlight here besides all the other effects, is that Catholic countries are not able to tax their clergy at all by default, although there may be other things modifying this on top of it. However, the clergy won’t necessarily swim in money, as that has to be instead paid to the Papacy directly in the form of a tithe.
Tithe.png


Another key aspect of Catholicism is that all Catholic countries will belong to the Catholic Church IO:
Catholic Church Map.png

Catholic Church IO pannel.png


You can see here that there are quite many countries belonging to it (the total list is expandable and scrollable), with some of them having some special statuses. For Bishopric and Military Order these are self-explanatory, but the Curia and Cardinals need some more information.

The decisions concerning the Catholic Church are taken by the Curia, which is composed of Cardinals. In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building. Each Cardinal Seat will grant its owner country a Cardinal, which the country can use to influence the decisions of the Curia (more on that later). Countries can have more than one Cardinal Seat and thus more than one Cardinal, that’s why in the panel you can see that there’s 7 countries in the Curia but a total of 16 Cardinals among them.
Cardinal Seat.png


Another aspect of the Catholic Church IO is its doctrines, represented by a set of laws. These laws are not something that’s easily changed, as it’s what defines the core values of Catholicism, but some important events will be able to shape them, like for example the Council of Trent (more on that in future Tinto Talks). Here are some of these laws effects:
Papal Authority.png

Purchase of Indulgence.png

Marriage of Priests.png

Persecution of Witchcraft.png


Next to the Doctrines, we have the Papal Bulls. These are actions that any Catholic country can choose to propose, but only those in the Curia can vote on whether to pass them or refuse them. Here are the possible bulls with some examples:
Papal Bulls.png

Illius Qui Se Pro Divini.png

In Coena Domini.png


When voting on a Papal Bull, the interface changes slightly to show how many cardinals support each option. It goes without saying that all the cardinals that a country has will be assigned to vote for the same option, so the amount of cardinals a country has is effectively its amount of votes.
Papal Bulls Vote.png


Besides the Papal Bulls, there’s also the action of Excommunication, available to all countries of the Curia, that if approved, will get the excommunicated country some very nasty modifiers and allow for a special casus belli.

Excommunication Effects.png


The Catholic Church also has some extra aspects in the form of Saints and Holy Sites. Saints are characters of a country that have been elevated to sainthood. A country can choose to canonize any of its previous rulers, and they will get benefits depending on the abilities of such character. Holy Sites are special locations to the Catholic faith, giving some extra income to their owner due to the affluence of faithful in them.
Saints.png

Holy Sites.png


Outside the Catholic Church per se and instead in the main religion panel, there are some extra religious actions available to certain countries, besides the already mentioned option to canonize a character.
Religious Actions.png


  • Demand Apostolic Tax is an action exclusive to the Papacy, in which they will demand extra payment from those countries with the Apostolic Tax privilege enabled.
  • Request Aid is an action exclusive to the military orders, in which they can ask to petition support to the Pope for their infrastructure, military, or coffers.
  • Placitum Regium is an action available to kingdoms or empires that gives them some extra crown power at the expense of relations with the Papacy.

One last thing to mention here is that, as you can see, Catholicism also has Reform Desire. However, in contrast to some other of our titles that also present this value, here it is not a ticking clock for the Reformation, but instead something that will come into play in the Council of Trent. As such, you will have to wait a bit for a further explanation on it.

And that is all for today, next week we will resolve these cliffhangers by taking a further look at what Catholicism has in store after the start of the game, including the situations of the Western Schism, Reformation, and the Council of Trent. On the other hand, in this week’s Tinto Flavor we will go directly to the head of Catholicism by taking a look at the flavor content for the Papal States. Also, remember that this week’s Tinto Flavour will be on Thursday, as this week is Good Friday and the Papal States would be too busy to attend their own Tinto Flavor then (oh, and it’s also a holiday).

See you next time!
 
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Another aspect of the Catholic Church IO is its doctrines, represented by a set of laws. These laws are not something that’s easily changed, as it’s what defines the core values of Catholicism, but some important events will be able to shape them, like for example the Council of Trent (more on that in future Tinto Talks).
I guess I should be asking this in the next TT, but if there's a way to change Catholic doctrines, will it be possible to mend the East-West Schism as Papacy through reforms?
 
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What is formally an empire?
In the European context, the pope crowned someone as such (hence the whole symbology from Napoleon "inviting" to crown him and then taking it from his hands to crown himself, very good political communication :p ). There were colonial empires that were not empires in that sense.
 
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Is it possible for countries outside Europe having cardinals elected? Like if I playing with Japan, and converting to Catholicism, or like Brazil or New Spain having cardinals elected and electig a pope.

Another thing is, I think that having cardinals elected from your country should be like an indirect influence, like, if I have good relations with the cardinal of my country he would likely accept my orientation in vonting something, if he doesn't like me, he hardly would consider my orientation.

Last question, If I'm playing an empire, like Ethiopia, and convert to Catholicism, the pope would recognize me as an Emperor, or I would have an downgrade and becoming the Kingdom of Ethiopia.
 
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You know, one thing I was hoping from this talk was a map of every Catholic pop, including those places where Catholics are less than 10%. At what point might I hope to see that kind of thing?
 
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I remember that Pavia mentioned the entire population of Europe is going to be 99 million, and that the population of Catholic countries is already 85 million. Does that mean the population of Orthodox countries will be around 14 million pops?
 
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Thats look like most complex game Paradox ever created. I´m afraid about balancing
 
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I know I'm late to this party, but I wanted to ask

Will there be events regarding France's relationship with the pope?

From the idea of "Gallicanism" (basically a French movement similar to Anglicanism that sought to modify the Catholic religion to suit French needs in the 1600s) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallicanism

To the Cult of Reason and the Cult of the Supreme Being before Napoleon scrapped it all. Also brings to question, are we capable of changing our state religion?

I look forward to all these awesome mechanics you guys have shown thus far either way!
 
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Building a generic cathedral to get a cardinal seems to me to have no plausible link to anything historical. From my basic understanding, cardinals were a means of influence buying for popes in the medieval and to some extent early modern period. You could call it a patron-client network, or a mafia, or ecclesiastical diplomacy, or a carrot-stick loyalty scheme, depending on your interpretation.

If the following lists are to be believed and are indicative (despite omissions):

Cardinals of the 14th Century
Cardinals of the 15th Century
Cardinals of the 16th Century
Cardinals of the 17th Century

Then a pretty clear picture can be formed. Under the Western Schism, most cardinals were French, after which in the early 15th century the Italians trickle in again, and become dominant quite quickly, although French cardinals are still a significant group. Then up until the reformation you get mostly Italians again, with some more Iberians, still the French (both of which had become more of a military threat in Italy) and the odd German or English now and again, and sometimes a single Pole or Hungarian.

Then after The Reformation, it is pretty much smooth sailing of Italians, plus a small sprinkle of French and Iberians. In the 17th century, even the French and Iberians become rare. My understanding is that with the Pope becoming more irrelevant in European foreign and power politics, the main benefit of dangling the cardinalate to potential suitors became satiating local political forces in the Papal States and sometimes neighboring states.

As for the churches thing, I guess maybe it is inspired by this?


But all of those are in Rome, serve only a ceremonial function, and I don't know how far back this tradition goes or how broadly it was enforced.

Although it has to be noted that a big unknown is the religious influence thing we don't yet know about. If that is done well (in a way that accounts for geography, threat in Italy, general Catholic prestige) then maybe the fact that you have to build a cathedral for some reason would be acceptable.

So how to make a system that reflects all of the ebbs and flows in the geographical and numerical composition of the College of Cardinals?

My take would be something like this:

First of all, Italians should pretty much get a bonus chance for cardinals just for being Italians. It is crude, but also accurate, I don't see any other way of doing it. Next up should be Catholic powers that have a presence in Italy or border an adjacent region to Italy (so some dynamism), with an increased chance by country rank. After that should be theocracies, then monarchies outside of the Carolingian core+Iberia+the general Mediterranean, again chanced by country rank. So pretty close to the EU4 system, but actually slightly more restrictive to reflect what actually happened and how distant Rome seemed in Northern and partially Eastern Europe.

This would allow a resurgent Swabia/Bavaria/Austria HRE power or Bohemia/Poland/Hungary to gain cardinals more reliably if they made it a priority to gain influence in Italy, but not as a default, and not any Catholic country that has some gold can gain cardinals through a building on a whim.
 
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i am kinda surprise chartres is a holy site, what is the reason for it to be instead of paris (with the pilgrimmage in the region) or lyon (the place where the bishops in gaul are ruled over) if the reason was for balancing by giving at least one to france at start?
 
Yes, Spain, the strongest european power for like a third of the game's timeframe, only rivaled at its height (when it should in fact be called a 'monarchy' on the map) by the ottomans and the Ming, it's literally the same in this time period as some random irrelevant german barony, pure genious argument dude.
Look, "the Hispanic Monarchy" sounds not like the name of a state, but an academic moniker for something not properly named (e.g. not the Spanish state/empire, but the institution of monarchy ruling it). The Chinese "dynasties" have a similar issue. And we already have a 100 page thread about Byzantium, where the name at least resembles a state. Maybe more game rules can help here.

The name "Hispanic Monarchy" might work in Spanish, but its translations will be oddities in other languages. It does seem that there was a mix of potential terms, half of which were quite awkward. Spain is not unique in this regard, given that other "states" existed that were just "all the areas ruled by our inbred monarch".

BTW, basically none of the HRE minors would be baronies. Barons are lesser nobles and would generally not be granted imperial immediacy and hence not be princely states represented here.

What I felt "cringy" was the fact that you described the handy shorthand term as "cringy", because it indicates that you might still care a bit much about this monarchy nonsense today. To me, "Hispanic Monarchy" would be a "cringy" name.

This is far enough offtopic for a thread talking about the curia. Don't want another ERE situation.
 
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Is it possible for countries outside Europe having cardinals elected? Like if I playing with Japan, and converting to Catholicism, or like Brazil or New Spain having cardinals elected and electig a pope.
If you have a Cardinal you get to vote on the Bulls.
If you have a Cardinal there is a chance that they are elected Pope.

Another thing is, I think that having cardinals elected from your country should be like an indirect influence, like, if I have good relations with the cardinal of my country he would likely accept my orientation in vonting something, if he doesn't like me, he hardly would consider my orientation.
  1. Cardinals are not portrayed as characters
  2. Characters do not have 'relation' scores with states or other characters. (From what we have been told)
  3. I would tie it to the satisfaction of the Clergy if I were to implement this.

Last question, If I'm playing an empire, like Ethiopia, and convert to Catholicism, the pope would recognize me as an Emperor, or I would have an downgrade and becoming the Kingdom of Ethiopia.
This has not been answered.
 
i am kinda surprise chartres is a holy site, what is the reason for it to be instead of paris (with the pilgrimmage in the region) or lyon (the place where the bishops in gaul are ruled over) if the reason was for balancing by giving at least one to france at start?
It hold the veil of Mary (well a relic at least). It's a Marian pilgrimage site.
 
What I felt "cringy" was the fact that you described the handy shorthand term as "cringy", because it indicates that you might still care a bit much about this monarchy nonsense today. To me, "Hispanic Monarchy" would be a "cringy" name.

This is far enough offtopic for a thread talking about the curia. Don't want another ERE situation.
Unlike a kingdom that is, I presume, not a form of monarchic goverment?
It is true that 'hispanic monarchy' is an academic term, one that btw appeared in academic opposition to 'spanish empire' but it is generally considered preferable to 'Spain's' actual official name during most of this time period 'The Catholic Monarchy', that's not only how it was internally refered to in official contexts, but also by foreign diplomats, so french diplomats would refer to the 'lands of the catholic monarchy' and not to the 'lands of the kingdom of spain'.
The issue is, obviously that 'Catholic Monarchy' creates a whole assortment of issues in-gane that 'Hispanic Monarchy' does not such as, 'what if Spain is not catholic?' but if you prefer using catholic instead of hispanic to avoid using an 'academic term' fine for me.

Besides Castile and Aragon are already confirmed to be refered to as 'crowns' rather than 'kingdoms' in-game, so your point seems to be incredibly weird, should they be renamed to kingdoms so their 'special treatment' doesn't offend your sensibilities?
 
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Unlike a kingdom that is, I presume, not a form of monarchic goverment?
It's the insistance on a particularly odd name that I consider cringy. Monarchy itself is outdated, but unavoidable in the game. But "monarchy" as term usually refers to an institution or generally to the form of government, not a specific state itself. "Crown of X" is somewhat similar, but easier read as "lands ruled by the Crown of X".
It is true that 'hispanic monarchy' is an academic term, one that btw appeared in academic opposition to 'spanish empire' but it is generally considered preferable to 'Spain's' actual official name during most of this time period 'The Catholic Monarchy', that's not only how it was internally refered to in official contexts, but also by foreign diplomats, so french diplomats would refer to the 'lands of the catholic monarchy' and not to the 'lands of the kingdom of spain'.
The issue is, obviously that 'Catholic Monarchy' creates a whole assortment of issues in-gane that 'Hispanic Monarchy' does not such as, 'what if Spain is not catholic?' but if you prefer using catholic instead of hispanic to avoid using an 'academic term' fine for me.
I'll grant that Spain mostly has bad choices for naming, but the purely academic term isn't better. "Catholic monarchy" would be worse in most locations where the country name appears. It is and was pretty pretentious, after all. Reading it as such in the Catholic Church IO would make this even more obvious.
Besides Castile and Aragon are already confirmed to be refered to as 'crowns' rather than 'kingdoms' in-game, so your point seems to be incredibly weird, should they be renamed to kingdoms so their 'special treatment' doesn't offend your sensibilities?
Having it referred to as "Crown(s) of Spain" or "Kingdoms of Spain" would be less awkward.

Anyway, as said.. too far offtopic, we can resume this discussion when Spain/Castile has its Flavor thread.