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Tinto Talks #63 - 14th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will be taking a look at three of the religions born in India: Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism, which in the game are part of the Dharmic religion group:
Dharmic.jpg

As usual, take all UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

So let’s start by taking a look at the religious divide of India at the start of the game, in 1337:
Indian Religions.jpg

We now have an interesting feature when in the religious map mode, as by hovering over a certain religion in the religious breakdown, you can check the religious spread and heatmap of that said religion. So let’s check Hinduism and Jainism, as both are present in 1337:
Hinduism spread.jpg

Jainism spread.jpg

You also have these tooltips with the most important characteristics and the flavour of each religion, as we saw in previous Tinto Talks.



Hinduism

Hinduism1.jpg

Hindu Panel.jpg

The first thing to talk about is the Hindu branches, which appear as an icon and action in the panel:
Hindu Branch1.jpg

There are four branches in Hinduism, and each one is represented through an International Organization. Here you can see all:
Hindu Branches.jpg

When you click on a Hindu IO, each has its own panel:
Hindu Branch3.jpg

In ‘Agenda’ (which is a common building block for different religions), you have a religious law set for each branch, that defines its mechanics:
Hindu Laws.jpg

This is the one for Vaishnavism:
Hindu Laws2.jpg

Vaishnavism2.jpg

Don't you love nested tooltips? Because we do!

It allows the country to activate as many as 3 Avatars of the god Vishnu, depending on having access to one of its holy sites:
Activate Avatar.jpg

And each avatar has different modifiers attached to it:
Narasimha.jpg

Captura de pantalla 2025-05-14 125751.jpg

Matsya.jpg

Shaivism:
Shaivism.jpg

Self Control.jpg

You can gain or lose Self Control by performing these actions, and also some random events:
Self Control Actions.jpg

Perform Yoga.jpg

Indulge in Feasts.jpg

Discard Wordly Possesions.jpg

Indulge in Bloodbath.jpg

Shaktism:
Shaktism.jpg

This only allows you to have 1 Avatar active at any time of 10 possible, 5 in peace times and 5 in war times. By declaring war or stopping being at war makes you change from an avatar of one category to an avatar of the other. These avatars are randomly assigned, but you can change/reroll them using the Change Avatar action. The main difference with Vaishnavism is that you don’t need to have access to a holy site:
Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar.jpg

Change Avatar2.jpg

Candi.jpg

And Smartism:
Smartism.jpg

In Smartism, you want to have all 5 gods favored equally, or otherwise they will give you negative modifiers. You can favor one over the others, though, to get more benefits from that one, at the cost of getting these negative modifiers from the others:
Smartism.jpg

Smartism2.jpg

Favor God.jpg

Favor God2.jpg

Ganesa.jpg



Jainism
Jainism.jpg

Santara is the only country that starts with Jainism as its state religion.

Jainism starts with interesting features, as seen in the previous tooltip, of which the disallowance to declare wars without a Casus Belli might be the most striking one, as portraying the peaceful and self-defensive nature of this religion. On top of that, they also have a kind of similar behavior to Shaivism, with the addition of the Karma mechanics on top of it:
Jainism panel.jpg

Karma1.jpg

Karma2.jpg



Sikhism

Sikhism is a religion that is not present at the start of the game, but it will be able to appear after 1509 in a country that is either Hindu or Muslim, with locations of the other religion. If that happens, the following event will trigger:
Sikhism starting event.png

That will not only enable the religion and convert some pops, but will also create a unique building, the Gurgaddi, to serve as the seat of a newly created building-based country led by the Guru himself. The second option of the event allows you to convert to the newly created religion, while the third option allows you to continue playing as the newly created Sikh country.
Sikhism event b.png

Sikhism event c.png

Gurgaddi.png

Sikhism.png

The new country will have a unique government reform, with a unique heir selection making it so that basically only the gurus are able to be the rulers of it.
Guru Leadership.png

When Sikhism appears, it will also create a new IO, and the first guru will cement its bases. There will be further events for each of the historical Sikh gurus, and each subsequent guru that appears will add to that IO, configuring the religion with further teachings.
Guru teachings.png

Teachings policies.png

All Guru Teachings 1.png

All Guru Teachings 2.png


A final common feature for all of them are Holy Sites. There are several different holy sites for all religions and (and branches, in the case of Hinduism):
Vaishnavism Holy Sites.jpg

Holy Sites.jpg

These are examples of holy sites associated with the Vaishnavism branch of Hinduism.

And that’s all for today! We will continue taking a look at the Indian content this Friday, with a Tinto Flavour for the Sultanate of Delhi, and on Monday, with the Tinto Maps Feedback for the region of India. And next Wednesday, @SaintDaveUK will be hosting the Tinto Talks, with the topic being Unit Graphics. Cheers!
 
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I'm not a big fan of "perform Yoga"...

We are playing as the  country, aren't we? So who is performing the Yoga? It is implied that this means that everybody from the country must gather and perform Yoga together.

Is there no better option here?
Yeah, I would prefer a term like "Encourage yoga practices" or something like that.
 
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Ngl, I’m disappointed with the lack of sects. “Vaishnavism” and “Shaivism” were both incredibly varied. Would Tinto be open to further differentiating Hinduism if we provided a list of schools we wanted to see, and the countries that followed them?
Which schools and traditions would you go with? There is the classic 4 sampadaya traditions of Viahsnavism that I think might be good, but that would also leave out Krishnaism which is another big subset of Vaishnavism. Still for the game, what do you think might be good for PDX to go with? :)

The Sangamas of Vijayanagar were also not Vaishnava, they were Vīraśaiva.
Yea the lack of Lingyats stood out to me. Aside from being more accurate, I think gameplay wise they would present a fun different gameplay considering how that tradition similar favored equality and anti-caste. I can't remember if equality was a societal value or not, but I think if it is then both Lingyat and Sikhi should support going towards equality.

I'd prefer if you make sure it pretty much always starts in Punjab tbh. The religion has always been strongly tied to Punjab and the Punjabi people.
Yea, I strongly agree with this. It shouldn't be able to appear anywhere. It shouldn't be like EU4 where it can pop in south east asia and be divorced from the cultural traditions of Punjab which have informed it. Its one thing if it popped up in say Kashmir or Sindh but not further. Yet even then. The faith is Sikhi which is a Punjabi word. So it should always start there.

The Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms often have mix of followers of both religion in their courts. Rulers also make use the other religion's clergy as way of legitimizing their rule and earn support. On societal level people's belief is syncretized af. Most Moslem, Hindu, and Buddhist still worship local deity and combined many religions practices in their way of worship.

Syncretism is big thing in Southeast Asia, hopefully it can be represented. But yeah, messy...

Yea that is an issue with religions outside of the Abrahamic tradition is that they are not religiously exclusive. They can have their own traditions, practices, deities, customs, and they can be persecuted by others. but non-exclusive religions often mean things get messy as you said.

Still I do think syncretism should absolutly be presented somehow. The issue is that pops and countries seem to only have one religion as their state religion. Maybe there could be secondary or teritary religions that countries can support and pops could have? not sure.

Would be nice to see Mathas represented in some way in Hinduism and Jainism as building (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matha#). They were important for propagating the sect they were associated with. Perhaps they could grant some form of "religious influence" or whatever the equivalent would be in Hinduism in Jainism.
Yea, the monastic institutes are something important. I saw that Jainism had monastaries active, that should be there for Hinduism.
 
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Sammitiya Buddhism in Sindh:
View attachment 1298645

But as we're having the Tinto Maps Feedback on Monday, and we're now back to the work on pop minorities (yay!), any suggestion with specific data of Buddhist populations per region is pretty welcome!
Certain Buddhist communities and scholars/travelers survived into the late Middle Ages and 15th and 16th centuries.

For example, the Mahabodi and Nalanda temples/universities in Bihar were active until the 1400s, so there should be decent numbers of Buddhists around them

There should also be Buddhist minorities in the Hindu states across the south of India, as many fled there during the Muslim conquests, notably in Tamil Nadu

Screenshot_20250514_172757_Wikipedia.png


A Tibetan monk mentions the regions Buddhists survived in as: Konkana, Kalinga, Mewad, Chittor, Abu, Saurastra, Vindhya mountains, Ratnagiri, Karnataka

Buddhism also survived in the regions closest to Tibet, especially Nepal, Sikkim, Kashmir and most of all Ladakh (including regions in and around it, such as Gilgit, Baltistan and Swat Valley)


Cuttack in Orissa was another significant centre of survival

Screenshot_20250514_173321_Wikipedia.png



Another surviving population of Buddhists was among the Peristani/Kaffirs in Afghanistan (see below)

The Jains should be present in small numbers all across Western India (especially in Cities), as well as in Jharkans, Bihar and Bengal ( the Saraks, which were very isolated from the other Jains)

Also hopefully the Kaffiri people in Afghanistan have properly been changed to Peristani, and they could even get a new Peristani faith, representing their archaic and isolated form of Hinduism, along with some Buddhist pops as well. Their Kalash relatives, which also kept non-Islamic faiths for much longer, could also be added.


The western coast could also get a few more Zoroastrians (and I am once again suggesting representing the Arewordik Zoroastrians in Armenia)
 
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Certain Buddhist communities and scholars/travelers survived into the late Middle Ages and 15th and 16th centuries.

For example, the Mahabodi and Nalanda temples/universities in Bihar were active until the 1400s, so there should be decent numbers of Buddhists around them

There should also be Buddhist minorities in the Hindu states across the south of India, as many fled there during the Muslim conquests, notably in Tamil Nadu

View attachment 1298783

A Tibetan monk mentions the regions Buddhists survived in as: Konkana, Kalinga, Mewad, Chittor, Abu, Saurastra, Vindhya mountains, Ratnagiri, Karnataka

Buddhism also survived in the regions closest to Tibet, especially Nepal, Sikkim, Kashmir and most of all Ladakh (including regions in and around it, such as Gilgit, Baltistan and Swat Valley)


Cuttack in Orissa was another significant centre of survival

View attachment 1298787


Another surviving population of Buddhists was among the Peristani/Kaffirs in Afghanistan (see below)

The Jains should be present in small numbers all across Western India (especially in Cities), as well as in Jharkans, Bihar and Bengal ( the Saraks, which were very isolated from the other Jains)

Also hopefully the Kaffiri people in Afghanistan have properly been changed to Peristani, and they could even get a new Peristani faith, representing their archaic and isolated form of Hinduism, along with some Buddhist pops as well. Their Kalash relatives, which also kept non-Islamic faiths for much longer, could also be added.


The western coast could also get a few more Zoroastrians (and I am once again suggesting representing the Arewordik Zoroastrians in Armenia)
Wow I had no idea there were Armenian zoroastrians in the time period! Thats so cool

They […] appear to have survived as late as the Hamidian massacres and the Armenian genocide at the turn of the 20th century.

:(
 
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Hinduism still needs much more work....it has far more depth than choosing some avatars and closing the deal..... Paradox it's time you fully flesh out the religion like you do with the other religions, specially Christianity..... else it would again be disappointing as was in EU4
 
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Is this shamanist religion a bug?View attachment 1298677
Nope. That ain't a bug. The Tibeto-Burman tribes of western Nepal practiced shamanism [some still do] until some of them like the Magars becoming Hindu-majority while the Gurungs became Buddhist-majority.
 
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Does self control only go up to 10 and -10? Those seem really low as the buttons to increase or decrease do it by 10 or even 15. If this is as intended does it scale for better or worse if it goes above the number or below the 10 or -10? Seems like a pretty big bonus already at the minimum. Also, I'd love to see player actions effect self control too instead of just buttons. Like declaring war to gain territory could decrease your self control.
 
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"Allows Karma to impact the country" is an interesting phrase as that would imply every country has access to the mechanic, just not the associated modifiers.

Does it actually work like that under the hood though? And if so, to what extent is Karma hardcoded? Could have some fun uses for modding.
 
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I have some critiques and suggestions regarding their current modeling of Sikhism.



First would be the name of "Guru Nanak Chattar". I am unaware of the "Chattar" surname, and traditional Sikh texts do not attribute such a last name. In fact, I am unaware of any research which would indicate Chattar as Guru Nanak's surname. I believe that just Guru Nanak would work. In addition, the depiction of Guru Nanak as a clean-shaven Hindu priest would be inaccurate as well as offensive to Sikhs. I do understand, however, that this may just be a temporary figure for all Dharmic religious figures as of the moment.



I find the gurgaddi building/country to be...interesting. I think the additional modifiers getting added as each "new" Guru is introduced is good. It is similar to how EU4 currently handles it.



The tooltip for Sikhism is slightly inaccurate. The full text is the following:

A religion founded by the teachings of the Guru. It originates from the varied Hindu faiths of India, and incorporates many influences from Islam. It believes in one creator, Ik Onkar, and it to conduct oneself honestly and selflessly for the benefit of all. It encourages connection with the divine through the use of contemplation and meditation, as well as recitation and music as ways to to be conscious of God's presence.


From a Sikh theological lense, the modern, orthodox understanding is that Sikhism is a rejection of Hinduism and Islam, and it is seen as a unique, third tradition to the area. The inception of Sikhism, with Guru Nanak, involved rejecting many Hindu practices as well as many beliefs. Thus, to say it originated from Hinduism would be like saying that Islam originated from Judaism. With the former faiths rejecting or suggesting the latter faiths as being corrupted, and their faith to be the true message. With that being said, I must mention that this is the modern Sikh conception, and historically, there have been two competing thoughts about this. The first is the one that I just mentioned. The second, however, was the belief that Sikhism is an extension of Hinduism. This flavor of Sikhism, often dubbed as Sanatan Sikhism, holds that Sikhism upholds the Hindu beliefs and traditions, and it originated from it. They believe that this flavor of Sikhism is the original Hinduism, and other Hindus have simply steered away from it. Modern Sikh scholarship has held support for only the former, and in the modern age, the latter belief is seen as a heretical belief.



Lastly, I think there can be some additional Sikh addons. The one that I would most like to see is that Sikhism should spread faster among lower caste populations, as was the case historically; however, it should suffer when having to convert Brahmins. The conflict between Sikhs and Brahmins should be modeled, with there being unrest or disloyalty from this estate. Also, contrary to popular belief, Sikhs did proselytize, with the Gurus ordering their followers to go far and wide and spread the Holy Word. These conversions primarily happened in rural areas of society, which I believe should be reflected in game. Maybe a small boost for conversion to rural or lower caste populations? I am not yet quite sure.



Some additional flavor/mechanics for the future (these honestly would probably just be added by mods):

  • Slider/influence bar between Khalsa/Khulasa Sikhs
  • Rise and corruption of Masands
  • Rise, influence, and conflict with Udasi Sikhs
  • Post human form Guru syncretism of faith with primarily Hinduism, and to a lesser extent, Islam (this lasted until the Singh Sabha movement which started in the late 19th century)
 
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Question to @Pavía. Not really related to this Tinto EU5 Talk, but I have a question some players would like to hear the answer to, if You can talk about it now, of course.
Since EU5 is finally unveiled, will EU4 receive any update (not necessarily a big one) in the meantime as we wait for the successor, kind of like last hurrah? Are you allowed to confirm or deny that?

EDIT: Since people misunderstand, as I said, by update in question I do not mean expansion, it can even be small changes/bugfixes.
LOL

It's so over for you, map painters bros
 
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  • I feel that tooltips have gotten too big in general (with some on the streams appearing to take up about 1/4 of the screen). While this one isn't big itself, I feel it is things like the first line that adds to the issue. Do we need two lines to let us know that the list being show is the religions in the group?
  • Can we show icons either proceeding the names or above the names (with it being a horizontal list).
  • Still don't like the sun, but I cannot come up with a better symbol.
Dharmic.jpg


  • In the tool tip and first map Hinduism is orange, why is it being highlighter in green? Same with Jain (yellow/brown) in the next map?
  • Can we get rid of the line 'The Hindu religion is part of the Dharma Religion Group' and instead change the subtitle to 'Religion | Dharma'. (I would also be okay with 'Religion | Dharma Religion Group' if you felt the blue words were necessary)
  • Point of clarification, are the pop totals shown in the 'known countries' list those that are Hindu?
  • Move the pop values and icon over so they don't touch the scroll bar. (Also assume there will be the bar.)
  • Can we change the presentation of the 'yes' items to be <allowed|blocked>
    • Self Control <--> Allowed
    • Monasteries <--> Allowed
    • Declare Wars without CB <--> Blocked
    • Kharma impacts <--> Allowed
Hinduism%20spread.jpg


  • I would have Hinduism is the larger font while Primary Religion smaller. The value is more important than the title. Same with Sanskrit
  • I am assuming the picture is placeholder. I still feel it makes reading the data harder.
  • That is a lot of space to show the 4 branches. If you keep it this big I think I would center the visible 'tiles'
    • Looked down further and it appears this lists only the branch you belong to, then I would add the name of it here.
  • Feels weird to me to have the buttons text centered while the section title isn't so I would center 'Religious Actions'
  • A lot of empty space at the bottom. Also what does that background have to do with Hinduism?
Hindu%20Panel.jpg


  • Can we have the subtitle be Hindu Branch (which is what it is) instead of International Organization.
  • Can we have the list of members be a scrollable list instead of 4-5 nested tooltips?
Hindu%20Branch1.jpg


  • Add a little space between the flags. Maybe by removing the frames if nothing else.
  • 14 flag width feels like an odd choice? I think having width that are typically used for counting would be better. Something 5 or 10 based, dozen is close to what you are lookin at (but maybe that is my imperial units kicking in), or even binary. (10, 12, 15, 16 would be better than 14 in my opinion).
  • Can we change the member icon to the Vaishnavism with the flag instead of the UN?
Hindu%20Branch3.jpg


  • Change to "Policy | Tradition" and remove the first line
  • For others we had been using 'capacity' so shouldn't it be 'Avatars Capacity'
  • Of the 'on completion list is empty don't add the empty list or title
  • Is 'avatars allowed' different than 'religious figures allowed' listed in the base religion?
Hindu%20Laws2.jpg


  • Can we get rid of the increasing alpha value (or is that decreasing) on the previous tooltips. What is the purpose it makes no sense.
  • If you won't get rid of the transparency can you have it apply to the things on the tooltips also. I shouldn't be able to see the red X so clearly while barely being able to see the background it is on.
  • Did we really need an in-game definition for 'God'
  • Have you taken measures to limit recursion into the tooltips. I remember pointing out loops for Vic3
Vaishnavism2.jpg


  • Can we see the in-game definition of Owner?
Activate%20Avatar.jpg



  • "Choose the Avatar to Activate" sounds better that 'turn active'
  • It appears as though you have icons for the Avatars, can you add them to the list?
  • Is there any visual indication in the list for Avatars that we activate?
  • Why do we need two things to tell us why we cannot click the button?
Captura%20de%20pantalla%202025-05-14%20125751.jpg

  • I would think 'On each location that is a port:' would make more sense than what is listed. If there is a different internal control group start it will its own title. like if it also gave something to market centers it would have a new section that is 'On each locations that is a market center:"
Matsya.jpg


  • Example of a tooltip that is just way too big
  • Is this tooltip self-referential?
  • I cannot tell if the -10 and 10 are the endpoints of the start of their sections.
  • So do I read this correctly, if I have self control between -9.99 and -0.01 or 0.01 and 9.99 there are no effects?
  • Why does yoga cost prestige?
Self%20Control.jpg


  • Why do we need to repeat the title in the tooltip?
  • Remove the + and - from numbers when we gain or lose values. The sign is implicit in the words used.
  • If we are having lists of gains and losses it seem odd that the 'cost' isn't listed there but is instead by the button action. Don't we lose 37.32 Ducats when we Indulge in Feasts?
Indulge%20in%20Feasts.jpg


  • Don't like how the effect are cut off.
  • Wouldn't it be better to list which avatar is currently active (and the effect) on your countries main panel for Shaktism?
Avatar.jpg


  • Self referential tooltips are bad.
Smartism2.jpg


  • This is not easily readable/understandable
Ganesa.jpg


As far as I got. Will try to be back for the rest.
 
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Which schools and traditions would you go with?
I compiled the schools that the largest Hindu countries followed, and I'll see if I can expand it later. Feel free to provide feedback or add to the list.

Sri Vaishnava:
- Hoysala
- Manchikondas of Kurukonda (and neighboring Kalingandhra minors)

Jagannathism:
- Eastern Gangas (and their Odia vassals)

Vīraśaiva/Lingayat:
- Vijayanagar
- Hosagunda
- Kodagu

Pashupata Shaiva:
- Reddi
- Musunuri

Kashmir Shaivism:
- Kashmir
- Many of Kashmir's vassals

Shaiva Siddhanta:
- Pandya
- Ujjainiyas of Bhojpur

Natha:
- Mewar

Kalikula:
- Oinwar
 
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Very nice, but I have one aesthetic complaint. With Shaktism, their choice of goddess shouldn't be called "avatar", as the term avatar refers to a god incarnating on Earth in a mortal form, while the Mahavidyas of Shaktism are not mortal in any way, they are full goddesses, albeit lesser forms of the greater goddess Mahadevi/Adi Parashakti. As such, I suggest that you change the terms "Avatar" and "Avatars" in the Shaktism sect to "Goddess" and Goddesses".
 
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