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Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Islam. In EUV, it is considered a Religious Group, as Christianity or Buddhism:
Islam.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D, and 3D art WIP.

As you see, three Religions compose the group: Sunnism, Shiism, and Ibadism:
Sunnism.png

Shiism.png

Ibadism.png

They share similar features, and then inside them is where we make the religious differentiation:
Islam panel.png

The first mechanic is Schools, an old companion from EU4, but that has been reworked in EU5:
Religious School.png

Muslim countries start with a School, which gives some modifiers:
Hanafi.jpg

As you can see, each School has a different view of the other. This is important because you can invite Scholars of Schools that are available for your branch of Islam, and also don’t have a negative opinion of your chosen School.

Because, yes, the old EU4 Scholars are also present in EU5, but they’re now inside a new category, the ‘Religious Figures’, which gives some more flexibility on how to use them:
Religious Figure.jpg

Scholar.png

Scholars are now characters that can travel through the Islamic world and be invited to work for you:
Invite Scholar.png

This unlocks the possibility to change the Main School of your country to that of the Scholar:
Change Main School1.png

Change Main School2.png

Change Main School3.png

In total, we have this number of schools, with some schools being available to more than one religion:
  • 10 Sunni:
    • Ḥanafī
    • Ḥanbalī
    • Mālikī
    • Shāfi'ī
    • Ẓāhirī
    • Ash'arī
    • Māturīdī
    • Aṯarī
    • Mu'tazilī
    • Wahhābī
  • 11 Sufi - Both for Sunni and Shia, except 3:
    • Bektashi
    • Chishtī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ḵalwātī
    • Mevlevi
    • Naqshbandī (only for Sunnism)
    • Qādirī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ṣafavī
    • Shāḏilī
    • Suhrawardī
    • Īsāwī
    • Dīn-i Ilāhī
  • 8 Shia:
    • Ismā'īlī
    • Ja'farī
    • Zaydī
    • Imāmīya
    • Nizārī
    • Musta'lī
    • Alevism
    • 'Alawī
  • 1 Ibadi:
    • Ibadi - only for Ibadi
    • It also has access to all the Sunni and Shia schools, but not the Sufi ones

The main currency for the religion is Piety, again a returning concept from EU4. Piety can go from a value of -100 to +100 (representing Mysticism or Legalism respectively), giving scaling benefits to the country depending on the direction.
Piety.png

Piety will be modified towards one extreme or the other mainly through events, although there are also some ways of adding a passive monthly tendency towards one direction, including privileges and cabinet actions. Another important aspect to mention regarding piety is the fact that to be able to invite a Scholar belonging to any of the Sufi schools, the country must already be leaning towards Mysticism.

There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.
Manpower Action.png

Stability Action.png

There is also the option to perform a pilgrimage to one of the Holy Sites, as long as they are owned by the country, an ally, or someone with good relations. Performing a pilgrimage will give a small increase in piety, as well as sending the ruler on a holy journey.
Pilgrimage.png

Another important aspect to mention is the fact that Muslim countries have access to some unique laws and policies:
Iqta Law.png

Nikah Policy.png

Shariah Law Policy.png

Implementing the Sharī'ah Law will unlock an extra law, the Sharī'ah Jurisprudence, with policies dependent on the country’s main school.
Shariah Jurisprudence.png

Finally, there are a couple of unique buildings available for Islamic countries:
Madrassa.png

Sufi Loge.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, and on Friday, we will take a look at the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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+Manpower from that action should either be a buff instead of instant gain OR if it really has to be instant gain it has to come with some sort of debuff on population or population increase in some way to portray you are doing something unnatural. Otherwise Piety becomes Mana.
 
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+Manpower from that action should either be a buff instead of instant gain OR if it really has to be instant gain it has to come with some sort of debuff on population or population increase in some way to portray you are doing something unnatural. Otherwise Piety becomes Mana.
How is it unnatural?
It's using your perceived piety to call your people to arm

Instant buff and instant gain are the same things, only the former is more convoluted.

The drawback I see of the current method is that it could bypass the loss portrayed by losing soldiers. But I'm not sure how it works exactly and if that's relevant
 
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Didn't the ottomans only claimed caliphate after conquering the mamluks and their abbasid "shadow caliphate"? I don't think a caliphate IO should be hardcoded to certain tags but dynamic when meeting certain criteria.
Yea, this is what I said, you can create a caliphate by having certain prerequsites, and you can also increase your claim strength by certain events or conditions like Ottomans eliminating Shadow Caliphate

Ottomans claim increased after its conquest of Mamluks, but they started to claim themselves Caliph before that as it goes all the way to Murad I, son of Orhan who is starting ruler at 1337

 
Using what is available as Sects and Schools in this dev diary and adding nothing except 1 more order which was important in the timeline I have made a rough categorization of each with their knowledge of the top of my head. It can use refinement and correction but this framework details aside would be much more accurate to how Sects, Schools of Jurisprudence, Schools of Theology and Islamic orders would work. I want to emphasize the current system is not merely just inaccurate and lacking in detail, it is a completely false conceptualization with a formulation that goes above and beyond of mere misrepresentation to territory of disinformation.

Here is how the "Schools" currently available should be tiered, selected only one from each tier except for orders which all the existing orders should be categorized:

1. Sect

Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Heterodox

2. School of Jurisprudence (Maddhab)

Available for Sunni:

Ḥanafī
Ḥanbalī
Mālikī
Shāfi'ī
Ẓāhirī

Available for Shia:

Ismā'īlī
Ja'farī
Zaydī

Available for Ibadi:

Any Sunni or Shia ones

Available for Heterodox:

Any Sunni or Shia ones plus Alevi, 'Alawi, Dīn-i Ilāhī and Īsāwī

3. School of Theology (Kalam)

Available for Sunni:

Ash'arī
Māturīdī
Aṯarī
Mu'tazilī
Wahhābī

Available for Shia:

Ismai'ili: Nizari, Musta'li
Ja'fari: Usuli, Akhbari, Shayki
Zaydi: Batri, Jarudi

Available for Ibadi:

Ibadi

Available for Heterodox:

All except Ibadi

After that one can have orders which all should exist by default then can be either as accepted, tolerated or forbidden by state:

Bektashi, Chishti, Kalwati, Mevlevi, Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Safavi, Shadili, Suhrawardi and additionally add Qalandariyya

Basically it should be accepted if it is an Orthodox Order of its sect, tolerated if it is any of the available ones and forbidden if it is persecuted by its Sect or School of Theology.

The logic of this is that any of the Orthodox belief systems would use one of the combinations approved by the Orthodox consensus. Such as Sunni with one of the Sunni Schools of Jurisprudence and Sunni Schools of Theology. Meanwhile more Heterodox belief systems are less organized and more particular to their followers.
 
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Does the "Gain Manpower" Button increase pops or does it just make it such that more pops are available for recruitment? It seems very offbrand for eu5 to be able to make people out of thin air
 
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+Manpower from that action should either be a buff instead of instant gain OR if it really has to be instant gain it has to come with some sort of debuff on population or population increase in some way to portray you are doing something unnatural. Otherwise Piety becomes Mana.

It isnt unnatural, Manpower uses pops but only deduce pops when that manpower die, so it wont have any unnatural behaviour game
 
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Using what is available as Sects and Schools in this dev diary and adding nothing except 1 more order which was important in the timeline I have made a rough categorization of each with their knowledge of the top of my head. It can use refinement and correction but this framework details aside would be much more accurate to how Sects, Schools of Jurisprudence, Schools of Theology and Islamic orders would work. I want to emphasize the current system is not merely just inaccurate and lacking in detail, it is a completely false conceptualization with a formulation that goes above and beyond of mere misrepresentation to territory of disinformation.

Here is how the "Schools" currently available should be tiered, selected only one from each tier except for orders which all the existing orders should be categorized:

1. Sect

Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Heterodox

2. School of Jurisprudence (Maddhab)

Available for Sunni:

Ḥanafī
Ḥanbalī
Mālikī
Shāfi'ī
Ẓāhirī

Available for Shia:

Ismā'īlī
Ja'farī
Zaydī

Available for Ibadi:

Any Sunni or Shia ones

Available for Heterodox:

Any Sunni or Shia ones plus Alevi, 'Alawi, Dīn-i Ilāhī and Īsāwī

3. School of Theology (Kalam)

Available for Sunni:

Ash'arī
Māturīdī
Aṯarī
Mu'tazilī
Wahhābī

Available for Shia:

Ismai'ili: Nizari, Musta'li
Ja'fari: Usuli, Akhbari, Shayki
Zaydi: Batri, Jarudi

Available for Ibadi:

Ibadi

Available for Heterodox:

All except Ibadi

After that one can have orders which all should exist by default then can be either as accepted, tolerated or forbidden by state:

Bektashi, Chishti, Kalwati, Mevlevi, Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Safavi, Shadili, Suhrawardi and additionally add Qalandariyya

Basically it should be accepted if it is an Orthodox Order of its sect, tolerated if it is any of the available ones and forbidden if it is persecuted by its Sect or School of Theology.
What’s isawi supposed to be?
 
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What’s isawi supposed to be?

I assume it is the Maghrebi Isawiyya. I remember them having Alevi/'Alawi like folk traditions and beliefs incorporated to their practices but I might be wrong here, if it is sufficiently Orthodox otherwise it can be included as an Order rather than as a Maddhab. It is one of the groups I am least certain of since my knowledge of the Maghrebi groups are lacking relatively.
 
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Not as of now, but we're open to suggestions to potentially add them.
I think I raised this topic in some Saturday building thread, but... are there ribats as buildings in the game? It may be something to link into any islamic military order.
 
The sunni school of thoughts are not about the interpretation of islamic law and more about how everyday religion should be practized. Anyone (sunni) can adjust their life-style to any school of thought on the fly, without changing any religious views.

They were most definetly patronized, but were still personal in nature.

Sufis did their own thing. Independent of government involvement. Them being BBCs is fitting. Countries influencing their behaviour not.

Alevism and Alwai is a mixed bag tbh. In Syria some of them were even more akin to christianity than Islam.
Ah thanks for the clarification. :)

Using what is available as Sects and Schools in this dev diary and adding nothing except 1 more order which was important in the timeline I have made a rough categorization of each with their knowledge of the top of my head. It can use refinement and correction but this framework details aside would be much more accurate to how Sects, Schools of Jurisprudence, Schools of Theology and Islamic orders would work. I want to emphasize the current system is not merely just inaccurate and lacking in detail, it is a completely false conceptualization with a formulation that goes above and beyond of mere misrepresentation to territory of disinformation.

Here is how the "Schools" currently available should be tiered, selected only one from each tier except for orders which all the existing orders should be categorized:

1. Sect

Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Heterodox

2. School of Jurisprudence (Maddhab)

Available for Sunni:

Ḥanafī
Ḥanbalī
Mālikī
Shāfi'ī
Ẓāhirī

Available for Shia:

Ismā'īlī
Ja'farī
Zaydī

Available for Ibadi:

Any Sunni or Shia ones

Available for Heterodox:

Any Sunni or Shia ones plus Alevi, 'Alawi, Dīn-i Ilāhī and Īsāwī

3. School of Theology (Kalam)

Available for Sunni:

Ash'arī
Māturīdī
Aṯarī
Mu'tazilī
Wahhābī

Available for Shia:

Ismai'ili: Nizari, Musta'li
Ja'fari: Usuli, Akhbari, Shayki
Zaydi: Batri, Jarudi

Available for Ibadi:

Ibadi

Available for Heterodox:

All except Ibadi

After that one can have orders which all should exist by default then can be either as accepted, tolerated or forbidden by state:

Bektashi, Chishti, Kalwati, Mevlevi, Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Safavi, Shadili, Suhrawardi and additionally add Qalandariyya

Basically it should be accepted if it is an Orthodox Order of its sect, tolerated if it is any of the available ones and forbidden if it is persecuted by its Sect or School of Theology.

The logic of this is that any of the Orthodox belief systems would use one of the combinations approved by the Orthodox consensus. Such as Sunni with one of the Sunni Schools of Jurisprudence and Sunni Schools of Theology. Meanwhile more Heterodox belief systems are less organized and more particular to their followers.
I like this but a two questions

1.) shouldn't it be Twelver not Ja'fari as don't most branches of shia accept his school?
2.) what about the branches of Ibadi islam like the Wahbi, Azzabas, and Nukkari schools?
 
Honestly if Sharia has a selection of Jurisprudence under it, why would there even be Schools of Jurisprudence available under Schools? That selection should only be Schools of Theology, and Orders need to be separated from Schools of Theology.

Again I repeat, this is completely absurd. It's like having Jesuits and Order of Santiago as an exclusive selection with Roman Rite and each other. They don't have anything to do with each other! Even the current existing system in EU4 which is simplistic is better than this complete misinformation.
 
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Using religious mana to instant teleport troops straight from heaven is a FANTASTIC idea for a fantastical setting but I'd rather keep it out of the base game.

(Please don't go that route, we all know the slippery slope of how mana usage developed in EUIV)
 
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Ah thanks for the clarification. :)


I like this but a two questions

1.) shouldn't it be Twelver not Ja'fari as don't most branches of shia accept his school?
2.) what about the branches of Ibadi islam like the Wahbi, Azzabas, and Nukkari schools?

Technically indeed Jafari are Twelver, but because I wanted to keep tiering equivalent between Sunni and Shia schools as not to create confusion or UI difficulties it may be best to split it this way.

Indeed now looking at this image:

Shariah%20Jurisprudence.png


I believe the best thing to do with the "School of Theology" selection would be to completely remove Schools of Jurisprudence from there. Instead have only Schools of Theology which can be categorized as follows allowed by your selection of School of Jurisprudence in Shariah:

Available for Sunni:

Ash'arī
Māturīdī
Aṯarī
Mu'tazilī
Wahhābī

Available for Shia:

Ismai'ili: Nizari, Musta'li
Ja'fari: Usuli, Akhbari, Shayki
Zaydi: Batri, Jarudi

Available for Ibadi:

Wahbi, Azzabas, and Nukkari

Available for Heterodox:

Alevi, 'Alawi and Din-i Ilahi should be represented here instead only available for those following Heterodox Islam Sect.

So one would have their sect of Islam, which would allow them a selection of Schools of Jurisprudence from Shariah panel. Once that is chosen, they can choose a School of Theology which would be allowed based on their Sect and School of Jurisprudence.

I was just completely flabbergasted to see Schools of Jurisprudence and Schools of Theology conflated like that with each other and Islamic orders. Which is so puzzling when the game already represents Schools of Jurisprudence under Shariah selection as per Laws (which is how it should be and is an accurate representation).
 
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Can religious leaders issue Fatwas if they belong to a branch of Islam that supports that? That would add a little bit of the customization that Christian religions get in the game.
 
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