Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

[Atromb]

Hopefully one of the Iqta policies allows you to change tax efficiency for manpower generation. To represent muslim rulers granting tax exemptions to those that volunteered to the army.
I also think that muslim countries should get a bonus to same faith tribal levy size, to incentivice them to keep tribal pops around.

 

[LordThanatos]

Now for the schools you have, you should not have Wahhābī around at the start of the game, as it's an 18th century movement and its precursors were not all that influential before then. You should consider how you're portraying the Zahiri, as Ibn Khaldun wrote that they were practically extinct in the 14th century. If they're around, it should only be in the Mahareb.

 

[ItsMorkino]

How is religion treated over the course of the game? My understanding is that "state religions" were less of a solid concept before westphalia. Is there any flavor around this or an evolution of how religion is treated/the states interaction with it?

 

[Pavía]

Are there any military orders for Islam like there are for Christianity?

Not as of now, but we're open to suggestions to potentially add them.

 

[JKiller96]

Could you add the distinct Ibadi schools? Those would be the Wahbi School, the Nukkari School, and the Azzabas School.

The school of Oman would be Wahbi, M'zab would be Azzabas, and Nukkari would be limited to Ibadi tags in northern Algeria and Tunisia (Djerba/Jarba).

 

[eddin2]

All in all, good work, but:

There should be distinction made between jurisprudence schools and theological schools of islam, cause they are not the same nor mutualy exclusive. Can't be sure, but, it doesn't seem to much work to make another aspect of sunni viewpoint of islam.

Another thing is, piety +/-, it seems like you are pious if you follow legalism and impiuous otherwise, which doesn't seem the luckiest solution, maybe just make it piety leaning towards legalism vs mysticism or something like that.

In addition, clergy (which should be named 'ulema) should get different bonuses if leaning towards one or the other, and, in my opinion, mysticism should increase ulemas power instead of satisfaction (cause, traditionally, mystic teachings were more dependent on holly men, sinless leaders etc, than legalist ones).

Bonuses for spending piety should be made like modifiers instead of instant manpower or stability increase, like 20% manpower/stability growth increase for a year, or something like that, depending on game impact of course.

Niqah policy should give pop increase modifier, as it allows men, to have more children, and they can marry christian and jewish women in addition, as opposed to most other religious groups.

 

[DerRitter]

There are different pops that can be enslaved, like Peasants and Tribals, this a modifier that accounts for that.

Would slave-soldiers like Mamluks (that had ample privileges and responsibilities compared to labourer slaves) be considered Peasants? Or would they be a kind of "Noble slave"?

 

[Pavía]

Wasn't there any Khawāriji branch still surviving in this period like Azariqa/Azraqi ?

AFAIK, not.

 

[Bozkurt]

Now for the schools you have, you should not have Wahhābī, as it's an 18th century movement and its precursors were not all that influential before then. You should consider how you're portraying the Zahiri, as Ibn Khaldun wrote that they were practically extinct in the 14th century. If they're around, it should only be in the Mahareb.

I think same goes for mutazili it was dead for centuries before the game's start

 

[Booperboberino]

AI header image?

 

[amirblg]

can we see some of Islam advances

 

[Enku7071]

AI header image?

Nope, the design aspect of these images are meant to be more of a less-detailed oil painting. You can see similar smudgy (for lack of a better term) images on other Dev Diaries.

 

[Pavía]

So you can only have one religious school and you've grouped three different concepts into this mechanic?

That's a mistake. A School of Jurisprudence (Madhhab) is a different facet of faith to a theological school which endorses a creed (Aqidah) which is in turn a different facet from a Sufi Order (Tariqa). A person can follow the Hanafi school of Jurisprudence while being theologically Ash'ari and be a member of Mevlevi order.

I was really hoping for a more nuanced and interesting view of the faith that what's basically a slightly better version of EU4's portrayal. Even if you changed it to allow a separately endorsed Sufi order it would fail to represent the historical reality, as states often endorsed multiple. The Ottomans famously endorsed Rumi's Mewlewi order as part of state events, while the Bektashi order was popular among the Janissaries. Those are just two I think of off the top of my head.

My ideal would be to have you able to endorse a Madhhab and Aqidah separately (Where it makes sense - some are incompatible). I'd want Sufi orders similarly depicted to how you've depicted unlanded Catholic religious orders, with them as BBCs and able to exist on a sub-country level, and interacted with by the countries who own the locations their buildings are in. It opens up options for consistently portraying groups like the Safavid order, which can later come to control locations.

This just feels like EU4 mechanics have been ported to EU5, rather than making much improvement.

We'd like to potentially have the Madhhab and Aqidah schools separated in different categories, because you may notice that we're already covering both types in detail. But that requires some non-trivial code work to make it work as it should, which is why I'm saying potentially.

Regarding orders, we don't really have Catholic religious orders as BBCs, just some Military Orders (Iberian). If, some time in the future, we add religious orders, which is an interesting suggestion, we might think about it. We also had an initial draft of having the Schools as IOs, like with the Hindu branches, but that wasn't really working as we wanted from a design standpoint, so we changed to the current design.

 

[kubin22]

Could cardinals be represented as religious figires? Like ofc the schools stuff wouldn't work for this but since the system is felixble then maybe?

 

[Michael7123]

Will some of the religious schools become available via events in game representing historical developments? It would be pretty weird if you could access the Wahhābī school in the 14th century....

 

[Trukester]

Are there any mechanics to convert pops outside of your country? Such as sending Imams or da'is to other countries that we don't own, or are those types of conversions only script based for now?

 

[Bozkurt]

We'd like to potentially have the Madhhab and Aqidah schools separated in different categories, because you may notice that we're already covering both types in detail. But that requires some non-trivial code work to make it work as it should, which is why I'm saying potentially.

Regarding orders, we don't really have Catholic religious orders as BBCs, just some Military Orders (Iberian). If, some time in the future, we add religious orders, which is an interesting suggestion, we might think about it. We also had an initial draft of having the Schools as IOs, like with the Hindu branches, but that wasn't really working as we wanted from a design standpoint, so we changed to the current design.

I think you can just remove Aqidah schools and treat it as connected to your Madhhab because they are tied in real life too

 

[Abdullah Al-Falah]

The Sheikhdoms of Mecca and Medina embrace the Shiite faith?!

Short-lived Shia Rule:
The Fatimid Caliphate's (which was Shiite) control over the Hejaz (the region including Mecca and Medina) was relatively short-lived, lasting from the 10th to the 12th centuries. Saladin, a Sunni ruler, eventually overthrew the Fatimids in 1171.

Subsequent Dynasties:
After the Fatimid era, the Hashemite Sharifs of Mecca (a branch of the Prophet Muhammad's descendants) gained significant control in the Hejaz, often subject to the suzerainty of various empires, including the Mamluks of Egypt and later on the Ottoman Empire.

Unless you can provide a solid source that backs up the fact that some Shiite dynasties/rulers were in control of Mecca and Medina at 1337; this should be changed to make the Sheikhdoms of Mecca and Medina embrace the Sunni faith.

Also, for everything else I have to say great work, but I'm curious to know if the caliphate will be an international organization like the Catholic church for example?! Maybe with the ability to call for jihads in a similar mechanism to calling for crusades?!

 

[pheonicia]

Yea it feels unfair there is only 1 diary long content for all of Islam, the diary is not that long anyways

I mean, the really big problem is the instant manpower button.

 

[doken]

Please reconsider the instant manpower button! Now that EU5 manpower is connected to pops is specially weird. It goes into the manpower pool but you don't gain population; in the other hand, if you lose that manpower you lose pops. Doesn't make much sense.