• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #67 - 11th of June 2025 - Shinto and Shogunate

Hello, and welcome to another issue of happy Wednesdays Tinto Talks. Today, we will be taking a look at the mechanics for Shintō and the Shogunate.

Let’s start with the religion. In EUV, it is part of the Buddhist religious group:
Shinto Tooltip.png

Shinto Panel.png

As you can see, Shintō has two currencies: Honor and Purity. Besides being modified through events and the actions we’ll talk about in a bit, one thing to note is that fighting in battles will decrease your purity (due to the fact that blood is considered impure). Having high purity will allow the accumulation of honor, which will be able to be used for other actions, while having low purity would make people perceive you as an Oni on Earth, which may also have its benefits.
Purity.png

The different actions in the panel are ways of regaining purity, from the more simple ones of spending prestige or money for a cleansing ritual or a pilgrimage respectively, to the more expensive ones of offering a work of art or even the life of the ruler.

Besides these actions, the religion also features an International Organization, where countries can interact with the different factions present there. At start, there are three factions present: the Imperial Court, the Shogunate Court, and the Religious Sects, although more factions can appear in the future related to some other religious followers…

Each faction has some actions available, at the cost of honor, although not all the factions will be available to all countries. For example, if you are at war with the current Shōgun, you will not be able to access the actions of the shogunate court, for obvious reasons.
Shinto IO.png

Expansion Action.png

Demand Extra Payment.png

Appease Temples.png

Some of the actions of the Religious Sects will allow the country to interact with the mechanics of other Buddhist religions, but you will have to wait for future Tinto Talks for an explanation on those.

Shintō also gives access to some unique advances, like for example:
Matsuri.png

Nanto Rokushu.png

Shinbutsu.png

Kagura.png

Hachiman Worship.png

Let’s now move to talk about the Shogunate, which is present in the game as an International Organization:
Shogunate Tooltip.png

Shogunate.png

There is currently a bug with the ruler’s name not appearing in the proper order, it will be fixed.

There’s two types of special statues in the Shogunate International Organization: the Sugo and the Emperor (or Emperors in this case, more on that on Friday). The Emperor is the one that is “technically” the ruler of Japan (although the one actually in charge is the shōgun), while the Shugo are provincial governors, giving them some nice bonuses.
Shugo.png

There’s an action for the shōgun to either grant or revoke the governorship of a province, while the individual clans also have the option of basically becoming a de-facto shugo if they manage to establish enough presence in a particular province.
Shogunate Laws and Actions.png

However, these actions will only be available as long as the Shogunate itself has the appropriate law, and will be disabled once it centralizes control.
Residence Law.png

Becoming the leader of the Shogunate is something that is not granted, and instead it has to be earned. The first step to take is to obtain the backing of the imperial court, with the action Become Shōgun of the Imperial Court faction in the Sintō IO:
Become Shogun.png

This will grant a modifier directly to the ruler (not the country), and a casus belli to declare war on the current leader of the shogunate. If the war is declared and won while still having the same ruler, a special peace treaty can be enacted forcing the change of leadership.

And that is all for today. Tomorrow we have the ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video, and on Friday we will be back with a further look at flavor content for Japan (and the Japanese clans), as well as the situations of the Nanbokucho and Sengoku Jidai. See you there.

And remember, Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
  • 114Like
  • 63Love
  • 13
  • 6
  • 5
Reactions:
You’ll probably get into this for the Sengoku Jidai situation but which Tenno are you asking to back you as Shogun when you click that button lol
 
Finally some Japan and Shogunate content! I have a few questions though:
1) Will there be any other (military or civilian) titles that can be granted from emperor? Like a minister with respective bonuses. There were lots of titles (many of which were just formal).
2) Will shugo have a higher rank than other clans?
3) Can we force other countries to become a daimyo? Like, Korea or some island countries on the south.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
It's abstracted, giving extra tax and manpower generation for a while.
So when you are granted manpower like this, do the manpower pops actually move to your country?
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
9.75 Million is not so far from 11.3 Million <- ????????

Once again, the figures in McEvedy & Jones's work (1978) are significantly inflated. When compared to the population figures in existing studies, there is a difference of 1.5 to 2 times. And I have already presented sources to support my argument...
And again, a difference of over a million is by no means a negligible figure. I am not sure what you mean by that.
I mean that a difference of tens of percent in a WIP game does not warrant an indignant reply with 8 question marks as if the developers had made a truly obvious and silly mistake, but a "can you please correct this, here are the sources"
 
I quite like a lot of the mechanics here, although I still prefer Shinbutsu-shūgō over Shintō, but I definitely think that my suggestion of adding the prominent schools of Buddhism as BBCs would be a great accompaniment to the Japanese experience, both for historical and gameplay reasons.

My post from the map feedback post for reference:
Another thought about religion in Japan - there were lots of schools of Buddhism which specifically owned temples and participated directly in the Sengoku.

With the various noble clans represented, it would be interesting to also add BBCs for the major schools of Buddhism. They could provide religious bonuses to their sponsors in exchange for money - this could lead into events where you eventually get the founding of the Ikko Ikki.

Japan in 1337 has at least five major groupings of Buddhist schools - the oldest schools are the Hossō, Kegon, Sanron, and Risshū, based in Nara. Some of the largest and most powerful schools are the Kogi Shingon based at Mt Koya, the Shigi Shingon based at Mt Negoro, the Sanmon Tendai on the peak of Mt Hiei, and the Jimon Tendai based at the foot of Mt Hiei. Both Tendai sects as well as the Hossō and Kegon were known for their sōhei warrior-monks who fought internecine skirmishes as well as participating in the Southern and Northern Court conflicts.

Then comes the groupings established within the last few centuries of the Kamakura Shogunate: Pure Land Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, and Nichiren Buddhism.

Pure Land Buddhism was divided into the Chinzei Jōdo-shū, the Seizan Jōdo-shū, the Yūzū-nenbutsu-shū, the Ji-shū, and the Jōdo-shinshū. Pure Land Buddhism was often outlawed, and the famous Ikkō Ikki rebellions started as a branch of the Ji-shū known as the Ikkō-shū, something which could spawn in the 15th century by event.

Zen Buddhism was divided into the Rinzai-shū and the Sōtō-shū, both which were widespread due to the patronage of the samurai, with the Rinzai-shū being patronized by the shoguns themselves.

Nichiren Buddhism is based on the teachings of Nichiren, who preached during the 13th century - he was exiled by the government twice and had a wide variety of lay followers, but his death and attempt to appoint six senior priests as successors led to fracturing of the school. These divisions in 1337 are the Minobu monryū, the Fuji monryū, the Hama monryū, the Hikigayatsu monryū, the Mobara monryū, and the Nakayama monryū.

These various schools of Buddhism fought between themselves not just in scholarly settings but also in direct combat by their warrior-monks and lay followers, owned significant land themselves, and came into conflict with noble landowners and the government as well. All of these factors I think make a strong argument for the schools existing as BBCs.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
The fact you can commit seppuku for no reason and can't force another ruler to do it doesn't represent historical reality at all.
In most cases, people committed seppuku when facing imminent defeat, or were forced to as a form of execution.
Rather than an action you can take any time for religious mana (why would committing seppuku make the shogun consider giving you money??), it should be an event option in appropriate circumstances.
 
  • 15Like
  • 7
Reactions:
> Does the instant manpower and gold from the "demand extra payment" shogunate honor action actually come from the ashikaga stockpiles or is it generated from nowhere.

It's abstracted, giving extra tax and manpower generation for a while.

A year back, this is what Johan said:

This game will not have any mana or abstract global capacities.

for the record, i dont view gold in eu4 nor piety in ck3 as mana.

1749654647601.png
 
  • 19Haha
  • 13
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:
So when you are granted manpower like this, do the manpower pops actually move to your country?
From all that we have been told Manpower functions as a good and it only really has a one way relationship with pops.

Pops are employed in a building which produce manpower. manpower is then spent on building and maintaining units.

Its first when your units lose soldiers that these are "removed" from pops equal to the provinces contribution to the manpower production.

So granting manpower can be imagined as suddenly people joining your banner.(ie. more trained people from the already existing population) its not new pops. however it does make it easier to kill more of your own pops.
 
  • 7
Reactions:
I quite like a lot of the mechanics here, although I still prefer Shinbutsu-shūgō over Shintō, but I definitely think that my suggestion of adding the prominent schools of Buddhism as BBCs would be a great accompaniment to the Japanese experience, both for historical and gameplay reasons.

My post from the map feedback post for reference:
Aren't both options weird? Shinbutsu-shugo literally means that Japanese Kamis are essentially buddhas (本地垂迹), is that not a clue that Buddhism is somewhat superior? As a matter of fact many Shinto priests themselves were Buddhists, so wouldn't it be better to call it Japanese Buddhism instead of Shinto or Shinbutsu-shugo?
 
Maybe it will take until EU6 for Paradox to recognise Shinbutsu or Japanese Buddhism as things that actually existed before the big Meiji retcon of Bushido and Shinto…
 
  • 3
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
The fact you can commit seppuku for no reason and can't force another ruler to do it doesn't represent historical reality at all.
In most cases, people committed seppuku when facing imminent defeat, or were forced to as a form of execution.
Rather than an action you can take any time for religious mana (why would committing seppuku make the shogun consider giving you money??), it should be an event option in appropriate circumstances.
An event triggered either by having a very low honour for enough time, or asked by the shogun or the emperor ? With the alternative to commiting it being that you suffer a massive relationship penalty, or maybe even a threat of war ?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: