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Tinto Talks #67 - 11th of June 2025 - Shinto and Shogunate

Hello, and welcome to another issue of happy Wednesdays Tinto Talks. Today, we will be taking a look at the mechanics for Shintō and the Shogunate.

Let’s start with the religion. In EUV, it is part of the Buddhist religious group:
Shinto Tooltip.png

Shinto Panel.png

As you can see, Shintō has two currencies: Honor and Purity. Besides being modified through events and the actions we’ll talk about in a bit, one thing to note is that fighting in battles will decrease your purity (due to the fact that blood is considered impure). Having high purity will allow the accumulation of honor, which will be able to be used for other actions, while having low purity would make people perceive you as an Oni on Earth, which may also have its benefits.
Purity.png

The different actions in the panel are ways of regaining purity, from the more simple ones of spending prestige or money for a cleansing ritual or a pilgrimage respectively, to the more expensive ones of offering a work of art or even the life of the ruler.

Besides these actions, the religion also features an International Organization, where countries can interact with the different factions present there. At start, there are three factions present: the Imperial Court, the Shogunate Court, and the Religious Sects, although more factions can appear in the future related to some other religious followers…

Each faction has some actions available, at the cost of honor, although not all the factions will be available to all countries. For example, if you are at war with the current Shōgun, you will not be able to access the actions of the shogunate court, for obvious reasons.
Shinto IO.png

Expansion Action.png

Demand Extra Payment.png

Appease Temples.png

Some of the actions of the Religious Sects will allow the country to interact with the mechanics of other Buddhist religions, but you will have to wait for future Tinto Talks for an explanation on those.

Shintō also gives access to some unique advances, like for example:
Matsuri.png

Nanto Rokushu.png

Shinbutsu.png

Kagura.png

Hachiman Worship.png

Let’s now move to talk about the Shogunate, which is present in the game as an International Organization:
Shogunate Tooltip.png

Shogunate.png

There is currently a bug with the ruler’s name not appearing in the proper order, it will be fixed.

There’s two types of special statues in the Shogunate International Organization: the Sugo and the Emperor (or Emperors in this case, more on that on Friday). The Emperor is the one that is “technically” the ruler of Japan (although the one actually in charge is the shōgun), while the Shugo are provincial governors, giving them some nice bonuses.
Shugo.png

There’s an action for the shōgun to either grant or revoke the governorship of a province, while the individual clans also have the option of basically becoming a de-facto shugo if they manage to establish enough presence in a particular province.
Shogunate Laws and Actions.png

However, these actions will only be available as long as the Shogunate itself has the appropriate law, and will be disabled once it centralizes control.
Residence Law.png

Becoming the leader of the Shogunate is something that is not granted, and instead it has to be earned. The first step to take is to obtain the backing of the imperial court, with the action Become Shōgun of the Imperial Court faction in the Sintō IO:
Become Shogun.png

This will grant a modifier directly to the ruler (not the country), and a casus belli to declare war on the current leader of the shogunate. If the war is declared and won while still having the same ruler, a special peace treaty can be enacted forcing the change of leadership.

And that is all for today. Tomorrow we have the ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video, and on Friday we will be back with a further look at flavor content for Japan (and the Japanese clans), as well as the situations of the Nanbokucho and Sengoku Jidai. See you there.

And remember, Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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I understand the proposal in mechanic terms to place Shintoism in the Buddhist group, but it still sounds strange since Shintoism is not even considered a Dharmic religion.

So if Buddhism is outside the Dharmic group, why not rename the "Buddhist" group to "Eastern" group or something similar, I think it would sound better, even if all the syncretic and historical relationship of buddhism with native religions of the Far East, it would still be wrong to classify these native religions as buddhist.

I agree, seems like an odd choice by the dev team to place Shintoism as "Buddhist", they were syncretic with each other for sure, but still not the same.
 
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I agree, seems like an odd choice by the dev team to place Shintoism as "Buddhist", they were syncretic with each other for sure, but still not the same.
Can you point to a single "Shinto" state or pop that isn't Buddhist?
 
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That much being said, isn't it better to make Shinto one possible branch for Japan in later stage of the game just like Confucianism or Christianity in EU4, representing a more localist or even nationalist solution to Japanese people's faith? That is exactly what some Japanese people have been trying to do throughout the Edo period by trying to separate Shinto from Buddhism, not to mention the brand new Shinto myth created in Meji period.
 
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I can't point to a pop but I guess I could say the Haibutsu kishaku movement at least seems to imply that Buddhism and Shintoism were seen as separate things by certain more xenophobic groups.
That's a Meiji thing. The idea of separating Shinto from Buddhism didn't exist until the late 15 century. Even far after that Shinbutsu-shugo was still the mainstream thought.
 
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That much being said, isn't it better to make Shinto one possible branch for Japan in later stage of the game just like Confucianism or Christianity in EU4, representing a more localist or even nationalist solution to Japanese people's faith? That is exactly what some Japanese people have been trying to do throughout the Edo period by trying to separate Shinto from Buddhism, not to mention the brand new Shinto myth created in Meji period.
Perhaps an optional 'shinbutsu bunri/Haibutsu kishaku' mechanic for Japan? Why not? And also the opposite: when playing as Japan, have the option of adhering to supposed 'orthodox Buddhism' contrary to Shintoism, or simply maintaining the status quo of 'shinbutsu-shūgō'. After all, we play Paradox's grand strategy games precisely to explore counterfactual alternate timelines...
 
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Perhaps an optional 'shinbutsu bunri/Haibutsu kishaku' mechanic for Japan? Why not? And also the opposite: when playing as Japan, have the option of adhering to supposed 'orthodox Buddhism' contrary to Shintoism, or simply maintaining the status quo of 'shinbutsu-shūgō'. After all, we play Paradox's grand strategy games precisely to explore counterfactual alternate timelines...
That's pretty much what I meant. My whole point is that "Shinto" simply can't reflect the real situation of Japan's religions at the beginning of the game. I get that the devs are trying harder than last time on east Asian religions, but the whole Shinto thing still feels like they randomly grasped something most Japan-ish from The Chrysanthemum and The Sword.
 
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I was really looking forward to the introduction of the guardian system, so I'm happy! I'm especially glad that the final decision lies with the shogun, but aside from that, I think having a non-binding point system would also be good—like CK3's Byzantium.



Here’s what I’d like to propose:



Proposal for a Dynamic and Engaging Japan in EU5: "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword"

To the Europa Universalis V Development Team,
We are a group of passionate fans of your games and Japanese history. We believe Japan in EU5 has the potential to be one of the most unique and replayable experiences in the series. This document outlines our proposal to transform Japan from a simple map-painting subject into a vibrant, dynamic political simulation, reflecting its complex and fascinating history.

1. Executive Summary

The Vision: To evolve Japan in EU5 into a living political simulation of power, authority, and ambition. Players will experience Japan's most dynamic era not just as conquerors, but as shoguns, ambitious daimyō, or shadowy religious powers.
The Core Problem in EU4: EU4's Japan is defined by a simple Shogun-Daimyō (vassal) relationship. This fails to capture the essence of the era: the internal conflicts within the Shogunate, the crucial role of the Imperial Court, the Gekokujō (the low overthrowing the high), and the existence of powerful, autonomous entities. As a result, gameplay can become monotonous after the initial unification.
Our Solution: The Four Pillars: We propose four interconnected core systems to bring Japan to life:
  1. The Pluralistic Shogunate System: A dynamic political arena of shifting loyalties and power struggles.
  2. The Autonomous Sanctuaries (Muenjo): Powerful, independent entities that challenge the player's authority.
  3. The Gekokujō & Character System: A dramatic system where individual ambition can shatter the established order.
  4. The Imperial Court System: A unique source of "legitimacy" that all factions must engage with.
Why This Matters: This framework will make Japan a flagship nation for EU5, offering unparalleled replayability and emergent narratives. It will appeal not only to history enthusiasts but to all strategy gamers who crave deep, complex political simulation.

2. The Core Gameplay Loop: A New Way to Play Japan

The player's goal is no longer just to conquer Japan. It is to navigate a treacherous political landscape where direct and indirect power are equally important.
A typical gameplay loop for a Daimyō would involve:
  • Increasing influence within the Shogunate to be appointed Shugo (Military Governor) of profitable provinces.
  • Using the authority of the Imperial Court to have rivals declared "Enemies of the Court."
  • Managing the loyalty and ambition of your retainers to prevent your own overthrow (Gekokujō).
  • Negotiating with powerful temple-cities, deciding whether to cooperate for their wealth and technology or risk war.
  • Exploiting the chaos when rival clans are weakened by succession crises or political blunders.
These elements are in a constant state of trade-off. Appointing a disloyal general as Shugo might win a war, but could set the stage for his rebellion. This creates a deeply engaging experience.

View attachment 1316977
(Conceptual Diagram: A central node "Player Daimyō" connected by arrows to "Shogun," "Imperial Court," "Rival Daimyō," "Temple Sanctuaries," and "Retainers," illustrating the web of influences.)

3. The Main Systems in Detail

  • Player Fantasy: "I am the Shogun, struggling to control ambitious vassals, OR I am an ambitious Daimyō, challenging the central authority."
  • Key Mechanics:
    • Shogunate Authority: A national value (0-100) representing the Shogun's power.
    • Shugo Appointment: Instead of direct conquest, players compete to be appointed Shugo (Military Governor) of provinces. While a "score" — based on factors like military power, prestige, and war performance — suggests the most likely candidates, **the final decision rests solely with the Shogun.** The Shogun can choose to follow the score, reward a loyal but weaker vassal, or bow to the pressure of a powerful one. Every choice has political consequences, making each appointment a strategic decision.
    • The Daimyō Council (Daimyō Shūgi): The most powerful Shugo, known as the Shōban-shū, form a council convened by the Shogun to deliberate on matters of national importance. The Shogun must navigate their competing interests, making governance a constant balancing act.
    • Regional Powers (Kamakura-fu): The Kantō region is governed by the Kamakura-fu, a highly unstable special subject with a dual power structure of the Kamakura Kubō (private power of the Ashikaga clan) and the Kantō Kanrei (public authority appointed by the Shogunate). It often challenges Kyoto's authority.
  • Player Fantasy: "I must deal with these powerful, untouchable temple-cities. Should I appease them for their technology and wealth, or risk everything to bring them under my control?"
  • Design Inspiration: This system is heavily inspired by the work of historian Masatoshi Itō (Chūsei no Jisha Seiryoku), who described these temple-complexes as "states within a state" with their own laws, economies, and armies, functioning as 'Muenjo' - sanctuaries beyond the reach of secular law.
  • Key Mechanics:
    • Sanctuary Status (Funiū-ken): Major temple complexes are special tags with massive defensive bonuses and immunity to hostile actions.
    • Centers of Power: These sanctuaries control key industries, possess advanced technology (firearms, fortifications), and can field elite units (Sōhei warrior monks).
    • Evolution: Over time, these "Sanctuaries" evolve into "Jichitoshi" (self-governing cities) and "Jinaichō" (fortified temple towns).
    • The End of an Era: The "Sword Hunt" and "Land Survey" decisions in the late game finally abolish this system.
  • Player Fantasy: "My most loyal retainer might be my greatest threat. I must rise through betrayal, or be destroyed by it."
  • Key Mechanics:
    • Retainer Management: Characters have stats like Loyalty and Influence. A retainer with low Loyalty but high Influence is a prime candidate for Gekokujō.
    • Gekokujō Cascade: A successful Gekokujō event increases the chance of it happening elsewhere.
    • Unique Characters: Figures like Oda Nobunaga will have unique traits and ambitions that heavily influence their AI behavior.
  • Player Fantasy: "My army is strong, but without the Emperor's blessing, my rule is fragile. I must use the Court's authority as a weapon."
  • Key Mechanics:
    • Imperial Authority & Influence: A shared "Imperial Authority" value represents the Court's prestige, while each Daimyō accumulates their own "Imperial Influence" (similar to Papal Influence).
    • Court Actions: Players spend Influence to Request Court Ranks, Request an Imperial Edict (a powerful, low-AE casus belli to declare a rival an "Enemy of the Court"), or Request Imperial Mediation to end wars.
    • The Buke Tensō: The Shogun appoints a court noble as a liaison, crucial for smooth relations.

4. Phased Implementation Plan

This ambitious vision can be implemented in phases, allowing for a strong core release with deep, thematic DLCs.

  • Phase 1: The Core Experience (Base Game)
    • Focus: To establish the fundamental political struggle that defines this era. The goal is to ensure that even at launch, Japan feels drastically different and more dynamic than in any previous title.
    • Implement:
      1. The basic Shogunate & Shugo System (Authority and Appointments).
      2. The basic Autonomous Sanctuary System (Temple immunity and special units).
      3. The basic Gekokujō & Character System (Loyalty and core events).
      4. The basic Imperial Court System (Influence and the "Imperial Edict" CB).
  • Phase 2: Flavor & Immersion DLC (e.g., "The Floating World")
    • Focus: To deepen the cultural, social, and economic layers of Japanese society, adding vibrant flavor and new strategic paths beyond warfare.
    • Implement:
      1. The full-fledged Imperial Court System (involving court nobles, imperial ceremonies, etc.).
      2. The Culture & Ideology System (Court vs. Warrior culture, spread of philosophies).
      3. The advanced Economic System (Za guilds, Kabu-nakama monopolies).
  • Phase 3: The Age of Unification & Isolation DLC (e.g., "Pax Tokugawa")
    • Focus: To simulate the dramatic transition from the Warring States period to the early modern era, and the unique challenges of maintaining peace and dealing with the outside world.
    • Implement:
      1. The "Tenkabito" (The Unifier) System for the Oda/Toyotomi eras (Domain Reshuffle, Castle Demolition).
      2. The "Bakuhan" (Shogunate-Domain) System for the Edo period.
      3. The multi-stage "Sakoku" (Isolation) policy and the "Black Ships" end-game disaster.

5. Conclusion & Acknowledgments

We believe this proposal provides a robust and exciting blueprint for Japan in EU5, transforming the region into a theater of constant political maneuvering.
This proposal would not have been possible without the foundational research found in numerous Japanese historical texts. We are particularly indebted to the insights from the following works, which we recommend to the development team for further reading:
  • Masaharu Ebara, "Muromachi Bakufu to Chihō no Shakai" (The Muromachi Shogunate and Regional Society) - For understanding the overall political and social structure of the Muromachi period.
  • Masatoshi Itō, "Chūsei no Jisha Seiryoku" (The Power of Temples and Shrines in the Middle Ages) - For understanding the unique concept of "Muenjo."
  • Makoto Higashijima, "'Bakufu' to wa Nani ka" (What is a 'Bakufu'?) - For understanding the complex relationships between the shogunate, the court, and the people.
  • Yuri Kanda (ed.), "Sengoku Jidai no Tennō to Kuge-tachi" (The Emperors and Court Nobles of the Warring States Period) - For understanding the specific roles of the court and nobles in the Sengoku era.
Thank you for your time and consideration. We eagerly await the future of Europa Universalis.
Sincerely,
A Passionate EU Community Member



Edit:
We are currently preparing a detailed proposal document at the following link (still in progress).
Holy moly man i wish i could make such a post for stuff i like to see in game
 
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That's a Meiji thing. The idea of separating Shinto from Buddhism didn't exist until the late 15 century. Even far after that Shinbutsu-shugo was still the mainstream thought.
Well there was Shinbutsu kakuri which separated some Shinto rites and rituals from Buddhist ones, but yeah you're definitely right that Shinbutsu-shugo was the mainstream belief.
That much being said, isn't it better to make Shinto one possible branch for Japan in later stage of the game just like Confucianism or Christianity in EU4, representing a more localist or even nationalist solution to Japanese people's faith? That is exactly what some Japanese people have been trying to do throughout the Edo period by trying to separate Shinto from Buddhism, not to mention the brand new Shinto myth created in Meji period.
I really like that idea. Maybe having Kokugaku event chain in the late game that allows you to keep Shinbutsu-shugo or lets you segregate Buddhism and Shintoism from each other and allows them to peacefully coexist or allows you to embrace a more radical nationalist movement that violently removes anything that's "non-Japanese". I don't know tough, maybe that's outside the timescope of the game.
 
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Will there be any events that push for land expansion in Korea (Imjin War) once Japan is unified?

How feasible would it be in game for a united Japan to be able to colonize the Pacific rim of the New World before the Europeans take everything?
 
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Will there be any events that push for land expansion in Korea (Imjin War) once Japan is unified?

How feasible would it be in game for a united Japan to be able to colonize the Pacific rim of the New World before the Europeans take everything?
Historically a major motive for the Imjin War was to give the oversized Japanese military something to do, since it wasn't practical to disband them (you might need them soon) but it also wasn't practical to just leave them waiting around to probably stage a coup. The simple fact Japan has this massive army would by itself provide a motive to go to war with Korea, but I don't think that alone represents the sort of pressures which applied to Japan.

For colonization if you want to do that before the 16th century you're gonna need to bypass the Sengoku Jidai and unite Japan early, or invest heavily in colonization without regards for if the country is technically united. We'll see on Friday if the Nanbokucho provides a path to early unification but if not I suspect you'll be fighting Europeans for control of the pacific.
 
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Hello,

I've been following the recent Q&A on the forum with great interest, and your answers have sparked a couple of follow-up questions regarding how some of Japan's more complex historical situations might be handled in-game.

1. On the aftermath of an Imperial Restoration:

Your response clarified that if the Emperor were to take direct control, the Shogunate IO would be dismantled, not taken over. That makes perfect sense.

This got me thinking about the historical precedent of the Kenmu Restoration. After overthrowing the Kamakura Shogunate, Emperor Go-Daigo didn't rule without a military apparatus. Instead, he established his own regional military governments to manage the samurai class. The most notable of these were the Ōshū Shōgunfu (Mutsu Shogunate) in the north and the Kamakura Shōgunfu in the east.

To add another layer of historical complexity, it's worth remembering that the Kenmu government itself operated with a dual-power system at the provincial level. While Go-Daigo established these new military commands, he also appointed his own civilian governors (Kokushi) in an attempt to reassert traditional Imperial authority, placing them alongside the existing military governors (Shugo). This created inherent conflict within the provinces, with two competing sources of local authority.

So, my question is: Could the game mechanics support a scenario where, after a successful Imperial Restoration and the dismantling of the Ashikaga Shogunate, the Emperor could establish new, loyal military commands?

This could be a fascinating gameplay path. Instead of just removing the Shogunate system, the player achieving restoration would face a new challenge: building a new, Emperor-controlled military structure from scratch. They would have to manage not only these new "Imperial Shogunates" to prevent them from becoming too independent, but also the provincial-level tension between their court-appointed Kokushi and the warrior-class Shugo. It would perfectly represent the historical difficulty of a civilian court trying to control a warrior class.

2. On the mechanics of a "split" Shogunate:

I found your solution for the two Emperors of the Nanboku-chō period (representing it as a general interaction with "the Court") to be very elegant.

That leads me to a related question about a split Shogunate. In several instances, Japan effectively had two rival shogunates vying for legitimacy. This happened during the Kannō Disturbance, the Ōnin War, and for decades after the Meiō Coup. During the Ōnin War, for example, both the Western and Eastern camps had their own "Shogun," appointed their own officials, and claimed to be the legitimate government.

My question is: How might the game mechanics represent a situation with two competing Shogunates?

  • Would this result in two parallel Shogunate IOs?
  • Could both the Eastern and Western Shoguns appoint different daimyō as the Shugo (Military Governor) for the very same province, creating a "contested title" situation?
  • Would a player be forced to align with one Shogunate, with each having its own set of vassals and authority mechanics to manage?
  • How would such a "dual authority" conflict be resolved in-game? Would it purely be through military conquest, or could one Shogunate's legitimacy diplomatically collapse if it loses the support of key daimyō or the Imperial Court?
Understanding how the game might model this ultimate political chaos, where the very definition of "legitimate government" was fractured, would be fascinating.

Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions and engage with the community!


I've revised the first section, "On the aftermath of an Imperial Restoration," to incorporate your point about the Kenmu government. The text now mentions that Emperor Go-Daigo appointed both civilian governors (Kokushi) and military governors (Shugo), creating a dual-power structure and internal conflict at the provincial level. I believe this addition effectively strengthens your argument and makes the proposed gameplay mechanic even more compelling.