Tinto Talks #68 - 18th of June 2025

[FleetingRain]

Thanks for the feedback!

This is a super good point. We'll try to improve the design as much as possible, but it's also an easy task to do so, while reflecting the view of the majority.

I have tried to think of something in the "China should not be Buddhist thread", with help of @donbg and @MrEko.

The gist of the idea is that, just like Tinto's implementation, Buddhist religions would have available sects and you choose one to adopt - Sanjiao, however, would have three Teachings (Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism) and then each of them would have their own sects. You'd still have to Favor/Promote/Disfavor the Sects but also would be able to prioritize/discourage etc a Teaching.

With this, Confucianism and Taoism would not compete with the Buddhist sects directly, their different schools could be properly represented, and it would be easier to depict Korea's turn towards Neoconfucianism during Joseon.

The idea also shamelessly uses bespoke flags (similar to CK3 Faiths' "special doctrines") so you could, say, add Chan as the generic sect and then Zen, Thien and Seon as uniques and still have them all see each other as equals.

 

[old rabbit]

it seems Shinto will be weaker than its Eastern Buddhism neighbors, no? Korea and Dai Viet have 3 free slots, China has 2 Confucianism, Daoism and 1 free slot, while Japan has 1 paid slot that is actively at odds with its main currencies (it costs 70 honor to favor Buddhism schools, -0.1 purity, -0.5 honor, 30% clergy power). Like, between pestering the shogun for gold and manpower 7 times, and eating some hefty malus to get something like Zen - +50% army tradition from battle - is that even a trade worth considering? Also, do you have to pay honor upkeep for the favor Buddhism action, or does it have a limited duration?

May I suggest that Shinto:
1. Have 1 free slot by default with some moderate malus.
2. Choosing favor Shinto removes that slot, but also removes the malus entirely.
3. Choosing favor Buddhism adds 1 more slot, but gives a serious malus.

P/s: Why does Zen give army tradition from battle??

 

[GastonEstBonne]

I'm sorry, but what granularity? They are using generic names for the multi-country sects instead of splitting them.

Did you read my comment? From what I understand, you complained about them distinguishing between Pureland and Jodo Shinshu, saying they should be merged since they're basically 'the same.' Despite my impression that they aren't the same and that Jodo Shinshu is a distinct sect of Pureland Buddhism?

 

[matfer13]

Daoism should be spelled Taoism since that's the standard pronunciation in English(on wikipedia)

 

[GUILDAM]

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Buddhism. In EUV, it is considered another Religious Group, like some that we saw previously, such as Christianity or Islam:

View attachment 1321028
View attachment 1321029​

We will focus on the three main branches of pure Buddhism: Theravāda, Eastern Buddhism, and Tibetan Buddhism, which share the same core mechanics.

View attachment 1321030
View attachment 1321032
View attachment 1321033​

One aspect that all of these share is the presence of Karma as a currency. Karma, same as it was in EU4, can be modified by different factors, and gives different effects depending on its value:

View attachment 1321035​

Another very important aspect of Buddhist religions is the presence of various Buddhist Sects. Each religion has a variety of different sects, represented as International Organizations, and countries will belong to the sects of their own religion. Eastern Buddhism countries can belong to a maximum of 3 sects, while the rest of the religions allow for a maximum of a single sect.

Each sect has a value of Favor, representing the influence and support that sect has, as well as locations in which that sect is present. The sects also define themselves through a set of laws establishing their philosophy and teachings.

View attachment 1321036
View attachment 1321038​

As long as sects have a high value of favor (over 60%), they will be able to expand their influence by adding more of their neighboring locations to the IO. Conversely, if sects have a low value of favor (less than 40%), they will start losing their locations. Sects will also lose locations if the dominant religion of the location is not the appropriate one. Sects can only gain or lose a single location at a time, though, so they will not completely disappear or extremely increase in size overnight, but it will be a gradual process.

Sects gain or lose favor depending not only on how many countries are part of the IO, but also from countries actively promoting or disfavoring them. A country can choose to favor or disfavor a single sect to affect its favor value, although that will also impact the effects that the country gets from the sect(s) it belongs to.

View attachment 1321042​

A country can also choose to leave a sect or to join a new one, but with some caveats. For once, a country will not be able to leave a sect it is part of as long as that sect has over 50% favor. So, if they want to leave that to join a new one, they will have to first make that favor decrease. To join a sect, a country must not already be at its maximum number of sects allowed, and the sect to join needs to be present in their territory or in the territory of an ally or a subject.

Let me now give a brief overview of the available sects.

Theravada Sects:

View attachment 1321043​

Eastern Buddhism Sects:

View attachment 1321045
You might notice here Confucianism and Daoism; we’ll talk more in-depth about them in the last block of the post, devoted to Sānjiào.​

Tibetan Buddhism Sects:

View attachment 1321046​

Some of these Sects may be better known by other names, but we used more generic terms for them due to the fact that they are present in multiple countries:

View attachment 1321048
View attachment 1321049​

Some of these schools have other special sets of teachings on top of the main ones, like the ones including Vajrayāna Tantric practices, giving some extra actions to the countries that belong to them.

View attachment 1321050
View attachment 1321051​

There are also two other Buddhist religions I want to talk about, which were pending from previous Tinto Talks. For starters, let’s talk once again about Shintō. As mentioned in its own Tinto Talks, Shintō countries have the ability to Favor Buddhist Schools, and mentioned that that action gives them access to interact with the general Buddhist mechanics. That means that when performing this action, they will gain the same abilities related to the sects, with some costs associated with that:

View attachment 1321053
View attachment 1321055​

They will thus be able to join the sects of Eastern Buddhism, although they can only join one, with some extra specifically Japanese sects:

View attachment 1321056​

As an extra note related to the Japanese sects, Jōdo Shinshū will also be created as an additional one during the course of the game.

Another religion in the Buddhist group I want to mention (and that some of you have already noticed) is the new religion we have implemented in China, which we have named Sānjiào, something we did after careful consideration, from the feedback received in Tinto Maps. This is to represent the particular blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism (together with many other folk beliefs) that has formed and coexisted in China for centuries. As such, a country following Sānjiào will automatically belong to the Confucianism and Daoism Sects, and they will get both the Righteousness and Harmony currencies. On top of that, they will be able to join one extra sect of Eastern Buddhism:

View attachment 1321057
View attachment 1321058

View attachment 1321059
View attachment 1321061​

As you can see, these enable two special currencies: Righteousness and Harmony respectively:

View attachment 1321062
View attachment 1321063

View attachment 1321066​

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow, there will be a post about the process behind the Audio and the OST of the game, while on Friday’s Tinto Flavour, we will take a look at Majapahit!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!

Next up on tinto talks #69 an indepth tantric mechanic dissection

 

[FleetingRain]

Did you read my comment? From what I understand, you complained about them distinguishing between Pureland and Jodo Shinshu, saying they should be merged since they're basically 'the same.' Despite my impression that they aren't the same and that Jodo Shinshu is a distinct sect of Pureland Buddhism?

Oh, I think I misread you. I see your point now.

 

[EasterEgg3323]

I am not sure if it is correct to say that "Neo-Confucianism should exclude all other religions." While it may seem appropriate to implement a mechanism that describes "Confucianism become one of the religions through Neo-Confucianism," given that it involves interpretations that incorporate religious elements into the metaphysical realm beyond the forms of real-world politics and social norms, neither Confucianism nor Neo-Confucianism actually engaged in proactive pogroms against other religions. There is a recurring claim that Joseon persecuted Buddhism, but the accurate term is "neglect." From the perspective of the government and Confucianism, Buddhism was categorized as just mere "superstition" rather than a competing religion. This is not comparable to the conflicts between Christianity and Islam - Temples simply remained as they were.

 

[TheNewCaliph]

I urge the devs to reconsider. Depicting Sammitya Buddhism as the predominant religion in Sindh in 1337 is a deep distortion of history. While Buddhist, especially orthodox Nikaya schools like the Sammitys once thrived in the region, the religion suffered a long and often violent collapse, first under the Alchon Huns in the 5th-6th centuries, and later under Islamic conquest in the 8th century. By the 14th century, Buddhism was extinct in Sindh, with no surviving institutions, practitioners, or recorded memory of the Sammitya school.


This isn't just academic or stemming from personal sentiment. it’s a question of honoring the historical suffering, cultural transformation, and religious change that actually shaped the region.


The Sammitya school was one of the early Nikāya schools of Indian Buddhism, part of the Vibhajyavāda tradition. It was prominent in northwestern India during the Mauryan and post-Mauryan periods, alongside the Dharmaguptaka and Sarvāstivāda schools.

By the 3rd–5th centuries CE, Sammitya and other schools were present in Gandhāra, Taxila, and Sindh, where Buddhism was supported by Kushan rulers. Sindh had monasteries (viharas), educational institutions, and lay communities practicing Buddhism, possibly under Sammitya influence (Although this too is debated). The events of the later centuries would change this drastically.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------

​

The first wave of violent collapse came with the Alchon Huns — a Central Asian nomadic group who invaded northern India in the late 5th century. Their leader Mihirakula (circa. 502–530), a brutal anti-Buddhist ruler, left a bloody trail through Buddhist centers across the subcontinent.

Mihirakula is described in both Buddhist and Hindu sources as a fanatic persecutor of Buddhists, reportedly destroying thousands of monasteries and stupas. Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang (7th century) notes the memory of Mihirakula’s violence still lingering in Buddhist communities a century later.

“He ruled with cruelty. He killed monks and destroyed Buddhist temples.”
-Xuanzang’s Record of the Western Regions

This devastation permanently crippled northwestern Indian Buddhism, including in Sindh. Many monks fled east to Kashmir or further into Tibet, or were forced into hiding or assimilation into Hinduism.

With the return of indigenous rule in Sindh during the Hindu Brahmin Dynasty (7th century), the persecutions against the Buddhists eased but owing to differing religions of the new rulers, their state scarcely improved. Buddhism became relegated to a minority religion concentrated in the urban centres and practiced mostly by the merchant and artisan classes. The Brahmins did not extend much patronage to Buddhist viharas, stupas and monks either, which led to even more weakening of influence. During this period Hindu religious promotion and demographic majority was firmly established and continued until the arrival of the Arabs.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

The second blow to Buddhism came with Islam and the Arab invasion of Sindh. In 711 CE, the Umayyad general Muhammad bin Qasim invaded Sindh. While early Muslim conquerors sometimes showed tolerance, the reality was complex and often harsh, especially for Buddhists.

• Recorded massacres of Buddhists in the Chachnama during horrible sieges like the ones at Debal and Rohri.
• Buddhist monks are described in sources like the Chachnama as "Samanis" (śramaṇas), and they were initially allowed to live under dhimmi status, paying a heavy jizya tax and losing state protection.
• Many viharas were seized, taxed, or repurposed, and their religious functions ended.
• Over time, Buddhist communities converted, dispersed, or were absorbed into the Hindu caste system

Even the most “tolerant” Islamic rulers erased institutional Buddhism through taxation, land seizure, and cultural marginalization. There are no records of Buddhist monasteries, lay groups, or pilgrimages in Sindh after the 9th century.

Here are some relevant primary source excerpts:

“The Samani, who were monks in the Budh-mandir, were spared and allowed to continue worship in exchange for tribute.”
-Chachnama, trans. Fredunbeg, 1900

Even this brief mention shows the monks were subdued and subordinated, not protected as equals.


“The Budd and Brahmin priests agreed to pay tribute… their temples were left standing.”
-Futūḥ al-Buldān, trans. Hitti, 1916

Yet, there is no record of Buddhist survival into later centuries. The initial tolerance faded, and Buddhism disappeared from the sources — and from Sindh itself.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

By the 10th-11th centuries, Buddhism in Sindh was dead.

No Buddhist rulers, donors, monks, or institutions are mentioned in Persian, Arabic, or local records. No Buddhist presence is noted by Ibn Battuta (14th century), who travels extensively in Sindh and only mentions Muslims, Hindus, and Sufis. No stupas, sculptures, or viharas have been found from this period onwards. Nearly all traces in the archaeological record vanish by then.

“The people of Multan are Muslims; the city contains many learned men and Sufi lodges.”
-Ibn Battuta, Rihla, trans. Gibb, 1929

Even Chinese Buddhist pilgrims like Faxian and Xuanzang, who previously described flourishing Buddhist cities in Sindh, would have found nothing by 1337.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

By 1337, Sunni Islam dominated Sindh politically and was in the initial stages of gaining predominance over the Hindus, particularly under the Samma Dynasty (circa. 1351–1524), who built mosques and supported Sufi orders. Sufi Islam flourished: saints like Lal Shahbaz Qalandar had long-established shrines in Sehwan. Hinduism survived in agrarian and mercantile communities but had no state patronage. Buddhism was gone entirely.

To depict Sammitya Buddhism as extant and predominant in 14th-century Sindh is just plain anachronism.

It just ignores the violent history, especially the Alchon Hun massacres, Brahmin ambivalence (but still lack of patronage), Islamic suppressions and general lack of relevance that wiped Buddhism out. It invents religious continuity that never existed, it contradicts primary sources and besmirches and dishonors the lived experience of of the people of the region.

It’s a revisionist fantasy, not history. A reputable and competent studio like Paradox glossing over this historical reality to give an inaccurate depiction is just unthinkable. I seriously don't get why such a thing would be done.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

Primary Sources:

1. Chachnama, trans. Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg, 1900
2. Futūḥ al-Buldān, al-Balādhurī, trans. Phillip Hitti, 1916
3. The Travels of Ibn Battuta, trans. H.A.R. Gibb, 1929
4. Xuanzang’s Records of the Western Regions, 7th century Faxian
5. A Record of the Buddhist Kingdoms, 5th century

Secondary Sources:

1. Thapar, Romila. Early India. University of California Press, 2004
2. Dani, A.H. History of Civilizations of Central Asia, Vol. IV. UNESCO, 2000
3. Wink, André. Al-Hind: The Making of the Indo-Islamic World, Vol. 1. Brill, 1990
4. Eaton, Richard. The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier. UC Press, 1993
5. Rizvi, S.A.A. A History of Sufism in India, Vol. I. Munshiram Manoharlal, 1978
6. Shōno, Hidetoshi. The Decline of Buddhism in India: A Historical Perspective. Kyoto, 2002

 

[TheNewCaliph]

I urge the devs to reconsider. Depicting Sammitya Buddhism as the predominant religion in Sindh in 1337 is a deep distortion of history. While Buddhist, especially orthodox Nikaya schools like the Sammitys once thrived in the region, the religion suffered a long and often violent collapse, first under the Alchon Huns in the 5th-6th centuries, and later under Islamic conquest in the 8th century. By the 14th century, Buddhism was extinct in Sindh, with no surviving institutions, practitioners, or recorded memory of the Sammitya school.


This isn't just academic or stemming from personal sentiment. it’s a question of honoring the historical suffering, cultural transformation, and religious change that actually shaped the region.


The Sammitya school was one of the early Nikāya schools of Indian Buddhism, part of the Vibhajyavāda tradition. It was prominent in northwestern India during the Mauryan and post-Mauryan periods, alongside the Dharmaguptaka and Sarvāstivāda schools.

By the 3rd–5th centuries CE, Sammitya and other schools were present in Gandhāra, Taxila, and Sindh, where Buddhism was supported by Kushan rulers. Sindh had monasteries (viharas), educational institutions, and lay communities practicing Buddhism, possibly under Sammitya influence (Although this too is debated). The events of the later centuries would change this drastically.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------

​

The first wave of violent collapse came with the Alchon Huns — a Central Asian nomadic group who invaded northern India in the late 5th century. Their leader Mihirakula (circa. 502–530), a brutal anti-Buddhist ruler, left a bloody trail through Buddhist centers across the subcontinent.

Mihirakula is described in both Buddhist and Hindu sources as a fanatic persecutor of Buddhists, reportedly destroying thousands of monasteries and stupas. Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang (7th century) notes the memory of Mihirakula’s violence still lingering in Buddhist communities a century later.

“He ruled with cruelty. He killed monks and destroyed Buddhist temples.”
-Xuanzang’s Record of the Western Regions

This devastation permanently crippled northwestern Indian Buddhism, including in Sindh. Many monks fled east to Kashmir or further into Tibet, or were forced into hiding or assimilation into Hinduism.

With the return of indigenous rule in Sindh during the Hindu Brahmin Dynasty (7th century), the persecutions against the Buddhists eased but owing to differing religions of the new rulers, their state scarcely improved. Buddhism became relegated to a minority religion concentrated in the urban centres and practiced mostly by the merchant and artisan classes. The Brahmins did not extend much patronage to Buddhist viharas, stupas and monks either, which led to even more weakening of influence. During this period Hindu religious promotion and demographic majority was firmly established and continued until the arrival of the Arabs.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

The second blow to Buddhism came with Islam and the Arab invasion of Sindh. In 711 CE, the Umayyad general Muhammad bin Qasim invaded Sindh. While early Muslim conquerors sometimes showed tolerance, the reality was complex and often harsh, especially for Buddhists.

• Recorded massacres of Buddhists in the Chachnama during horrible sieges like the ones at Debal and Rohri.
• Buddhist monks are described in sources like the Chachnama as "Samanis" (śramaṇas), and they were initially allowed to live under dhimmi status, paying a heavy jizya tax and losing state protection.
• Many viharas were seized, taxed, or repurposed, and their religious functions ended.
• Over time, Buddhist communities converted, dispersed, or were absorbed into the Hindu caste system

Even the most “tolerant” Islamic rulers erased institutional Buddhism through taxation, land seizure, and cultural marginalization. There are no records of Buddhist monasteries, lay groups, or pilgrimages in Sindh after the 9th century.

Here are some relevant primary source excerpts:

“The Samani, who were monks in the Budh-mandir, were spared and allowed to continue worship in exchange for tribute.”
-Chachnama, trans. Fredunbeg, 1900

Even this brief mention shows the monks were subdued and subordinated, not protected as equals.


“The Budd and Brahmin priests agreed to pay tribute… their temples were left standing.”
-Futūḥ al-Buldān, trans. Hitti, 1916

Yet, there is no record of Buddhist survival into later centuries. The initial tolerance faded, and Buddhism disappeared from the sources — and from Sindh itself.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

By the 10th-11th centuries, Buddhism in Sindh was dead.

No Buddhist rulers, donors, monks, or institutions are mentioned in Persian, Arabic, or local records. No Buddhist presence is noted by Ibn Battuta (14th century), who travels extensively in Sindh and only mentions Muslims, Hindus, and Sufis. No stupas, sculptures, or viharas have been found from this period onwards. Nearly all traces in the archaeological record vanish by then.

“The people of Multan are Muslims; the city contains many learned men and Sufi lodges.”
-Ibn Battuta, Rihla, trans. Gibb, 1929

Even Chinese Buddhist pilgrims like Faxian and Xuanzang, who previously described flourishing Buddhist cities in Sindh, would have found nothing by 1337.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

By 1337, Sunni Islam dominated Sindh politically and was in the initial stages of gaining predominance over the Hindus, particularly under the Samma Dynasty (circa. 1351–1524), who built mosques and supported Sufi orders. Sufi Islam flourished: saints like Lal Shahbaz Qalandar had long-established shrines in Sehwan. Hinduism survived in agrarian and mercantile communities but had no state patronage. Buddhism was gone entirely.

To depict Sammitya Buddhism as extant and predominant in 14th-century Sindh is just plain anachronism.

It just ignores the violent history, especially the Alchon Hun massacres, Brahmin ambivalence (but still lack of patronage), Islamic suppressions and general lack of relevance that wiped Buddhism out. It invents religious continuity that never existed, it contradicts primary sources and besmirches and dishonors the lived experience of of the people of the region.

It’s a revisionist fantasy, not history. A reputable and competent studio like Paradox glossing over this historical reality to give an inaccurate depiction is just unthinkable. I seriously don't get why such a thing would be done.

--------‐------------------------------------------------------------------​

Primary Sources:

1. Chachnama, trans. Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg, 1900
2. Futūḥ al-Buldān, al-Balādhurī, trans. Phillip Hitti, 1916
3. The Travels of Ibn Battuta, trans. H.A.R. Gibb, 1929
4. Xuanzang’s Records of the Western Regions, 7th century Faxian
5. A Record of the Buddhist Kingdoms, 5th century

Secondary Sources:

1. Thapar, Romila. Early India. University of California Press, 2004
2. Dani, A.H. History of Civilizations of Central Asia, Vol. IV. UNESCO, 2000
3. Wink, André. Al-Hind: The Making of the Indo-Islamic World, Vol. 1. Brill, 1990
4. Eaton, Richard. The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier. UC Press, 1993
5. Rizvi, S.A.A. A History of Sufism in India, Vol. I. Munshiram Manoharlal, 1978
6. Shōno, Hidetoshi. The Decline of Buddhism in India: A Historical Perspective. Kyoto, 2002

@Pavía @Roger Corominas Please take note

 

[flazeo255]

Considering it wasn't shown in shinto talks, and we seen what favouring buddism does, then what would favouring kami worship do?

 

[Bishweshwar]

The sect mechanics seem cool. Perhaps some of those mechanics could be copy-pasted over to Hinduism as well?

 

[yushi_bot]

I'm curious how you plan to model the influence of minor religions like Manichaeism in China within Europa Universalis V.

While it was never a mainstream religion in China, Manichaeism had a notable historical presence and left a lasting imprint on various heterodox movements throughout Chinese history. For example:

1. In the late Yuan dynasty, certain rebel groups identified themselves with a "Ming Religion" (明教), a Chinese-adapted form of Manichaeism that emphasized a coming "Ming King" or savior figure—ideas that echo the Manichaean belief in a cosmic battle between light and darkness. Some later interpretations even claimed symbolic links between this and the founding of the Ming dynasty, although this is still debated among historians.
2. During the Qing dynasty, sects such as the White Lotus (白莲教) and Maitreya cults(弥勒教)—often classified as heterodox Buddhist movements—were deeply influenced by dualistic and eschatological ideas traceable to Manichaean cosmology. These groups launched multiple large-scale uprisings throughout the late imperial period.
3. In Daoist-influenced circles, the prophet Mani was at times syncretized as an incarnation or emanation of Laozi. Some fringe Daoist texts included his teachings under pseudonyms or reinterpreted him as part of Daoist lore.
4. Even today, there are small communities in southern China (especially Fujian) that preserve rituals and oral traditions closely resembling a Daoist-Manichaean hybrid faith, though these are extremely rare.

All of this suggests that Manichaeism, though marginal in terms of official recognition, played an undercurrent role in Chinese religious, political, and cultural development across the centuries.

Would it be possible for EU5 to reflect such "latent religions" in a more systemic way—perhaps via harmony mechanics, schools, sects, or revolutionary heterodox movements?

 

[Fawr]

I'm surprised at the Sanjiao bonus to literacy. It makes the protestants literacy bonuses look small (unless they sign up for every literacy bonus, and none of the other ones). ChatGTP (not a great source, but a good starting position) thinks that Protestantism and the availability of books from the Guttenberg printing press were key reasons for higher literacy in England compared to China from 1600+.

Is it worth doing a final comparison of literacy bonuses to different religions once they are all getting close to being finalised, to ensure it matches up with how different regions developed historically?

Do you have a plan for where literacy numbers should end up?

 

[titan.bevel]

I'm surprised at the Sanjiao bonus to literacy. It makes the protestants literacy bonuses look small (unless they sign up for every literacy bonus, and none of the other ones). ChatGTP (not a great source, but a good starting position) thinks that Protestantism and the availability of books from the Guttenberg printing press were key reasons for higher literacy in England compared to China from 1600+.

Is it worth doing a final comparison of literacy bonuses to different religions once they are all getting close to being finalised, to ensure it matches up with how different regions developed historically?

I don't have a definitive opinion on the subject, but the answer you quote seems to mix the religious bonus with the printing press one. So the protestant literacy bonus should be ONLY the one from protestantism, NOT the one from the printing press institution (historically as both were mixed it may be harder to separate the 2, though a comparison with catholicism may help here).

 

[Dsingis]

Is there a specific reason why "Eastern Buddhism" and "Tibetan Buddhism" aren't called "Mahayana" and "Vajrayana" respectively anymore? For more clarity?

 

[Fawr]

I don't have a definitive opinion on the subject, but the answer you quote seems to mix the religious bonus with the printing press one. So the protestant literacy bonus should be ONLY the one from protestantism, NOT the one from the printing press institution (historically as both were mixed it may be harder to separate the 2, though a comparison with catholicism may help here).

If the printing press institution provides long lasting bonuses to Europe in the 1700s (more than 200 years after it started) but not to China then I'd be happy with that being part of the picture.

I'm assuming it works more like EU4 and so an institution can't be relied on as the source of a long lasting difference in literacy rates.

The comparison with Catholic countries may indeed be a useful comparison.

 

[donbg]

We'll try to address concerns regarding the religous design based on the community feedback, as usual. Appreciated, as well.

1. Yes.
2. There's some content related to this process, although we want to improve a bit how it's linked to the religion. What you can actually do is to favor Confucianism over the other sects.
3. Yes, as having a country religion that belongs to the same religious group. It's also the case for Yuán and Sanjiao.
4. Yes, there are some mechanics related to the scholar-officials that interact with Confucianism, but we'll talk about that in a later Tinto Talks.

Hi @Pavía @Roger Corominas so here are the recommendations I would make to improve the system. Historical sources for my claims can be found spread out across my different previous posts on the subject.

I have tried to make these suggestions as simply and easy to implement as possible, and hope that I have achieved it. I also would like to comment that I am a bit skeptical of the that claim Korea should receive its own native version of Sanjiao, see below as to why.

KOREA AND VIETNAM'S SITUATION

As many have raised the point, Korea and Vietnam are in an odd position. One of things I’d like to reiterate is that Sanjiao is NOT “Buddhism with folk beliefs” as some have claimed. The entire basis and reasoning behind Sanjiao is that when Buddhism was introduced into China, it did not cement the foundation of a new theology and organized faith as, for example in Tibet or other parts of Asia, but contrasted and interacted heavily with existing Chinese theology in Daoism/Confucianism and was itself incorporated into an existing theological structure. Buddhism was originally considered a Daoist heresy when it was first introduced into China, just to highlight this case. This is entirely different to syncretism with folk faiths.

Korea and potentially Vietnam are not at the same position to also receive their own religions. They did not have their variety of ‘daoism/confucianism/chinese religion’ that provided an existing theological structure to which Buddhism was inserted into. Firstly, the arrival of Buddhism into those countries was not direct but rather was filtered through China and Chinese religion - and Buddhism arrived as a Sinosphere product in the same manner as did Daoism and Confucianism. Secondly, all Chinese Three Teachings were exported and incorporated into those cultures. The influence of Daoism in some regions even predates that of Buddhism. Local native beliefs were often interpreted through a Chinese spiritual lense. Here is an adapted excerpt from an author in the Silla dynasty of the 7th-10th century:

“There is a mysterious ‘way or truth’ [도: To: 道] in our country. It is called Pungryu (風流) ... It really includes the three religions (Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism) in itself and enlightens mankind ...”

I should note that what I am saying is truer to Korea than Vietnam. Vietnamese folk religion is noticeably robust and has a strong internal unique content, despite having been molded very, very heavily by Daoism. In Korea, musok, however, always had an iffy history of being marginalized outside of the religious mainstream - it played a similar role as shamanism plays in Chinese spirituality and becomes increasingly irrelevant during the Joseon. Some scholars argue that Confucianism (which came later) in Korea became even more penetrative and all-encompassing than in China, penetrating even further every level of culture, society and spirituality than in China.

Daoism did exist as a separate religious outlook and practice in Korea and we have not only evidence of their influence on the Goryeo court but also its decline during the Joseon dynasty and later moderate resurgence in the middle/late Joseon. We know of the popularity of Inner Alchemy and other traditions, and also know of important historical figures in Korea that were Daoist practitioners (e.g. one of the most important figures in Korean Protestantism, his name escapes me, was a Daoist master). Korean peasants too often practiced Daoist rituals and worshipped Chinese Taoist deities.

I would recommend representing religion in Korea as Sanjiao. As for Vietnam, possibly give them a religion similar to Sanjiao but instead of having the Daoism described below (see Gameplay for Sanjiao), they have a “Đạo Lương Influence”. This is a representation further that though Daoism influenced Vietnamese folk religion, from my understanding (and I have found no sources that contradict me, only that cement this view), Daoism largely did not exist as a separate trend or branch.

GAMEPLAY CHANGE FOR SANJIAO

Sanjiao I would suggest should have a new system with three religious modifiers (instead of Karma, Harmony, Righteousness):

• Buddhist Influence
• Confucian Influence
• Daoist Influence

Instead of being fluctuating values, these modifiers are always at a certain step: at 0, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50. The player deliberately has to choose certain religious actions (or in events) to move a modifier up or down. Only one of the modifiers can be at 50 at a time, and the three modifiers can never be all below 30 at the same time (use if = {} in the script to always ensure that any actions can never bring all three modifiers below 30 at once, and that if one modifier is already at 50, another cannot be moved).

Feel free to balance the below modifiers. The idea is that it is always rewarding to have a modifier at 50 - but you can only have one. For the other modifiers, it is better to have them at either the extremes of 40 or 0, with 30 and 10 being less worthwhile and 20 being the worst one.

Buddhist Influence: The idea is that a more influential Buddhism means better relations outside China but also means much stronger monasteries and clergy meddling in politics.
50 Influence has benefits: 2 Buddhist Sects selectable, +1.00 Diplomatic Reputation
50 Influence has downsides: +10% Clergy Power, -5% Cabinet Efficiency, -5% Administrative Efficiency

0 Influence has benefits: -15% Clergy Power
0 Influence has downsides: -10% Clergy Satisfaction

Confucian Influence: The idea is that a more influential Confucianism makes scholar-officials happier and legitimises the state, but makes the state look more inwards.
50 Influence has benefits: 2 Confucian “Avatar”selectables, +10% Noble and Burgher Estate Happiness, +Legitimacy, +Control
50 Influence has downsides: -Diplomatic Range, -Trade Range, (possibly less Taxation - as Confucians historically opposed high taxation)
50 Influence also adds +1.00 monthly Sinicization societal value

0 Influence has benefits: +Trade Range, +Institution Spread
0 Influence has downsides: -% Noble and Burgher Estate Happiness

Daoist Influence: The idea is that a more influential Daoism encourages a form of governance that stimulates organic growth alongside internal alchemical practices. Weakening Daoism can be beneficial to put the populace in line but risks pushing it to legitimise local rebels.
50 Influence has benefits: +Monthly Development, +Prosperity, -Expected Court Cost, +Plague Resistance, +Tolerance of True Faith
50 Influence has downsides: -Crown Power, +Monthly War Exhaustion, -Heir Chance
50 Influence also adds: +1.00 monthly Sinicization societal value (removed in the case of Vietnam's version)

0 Influence has benefits: +Crown Power
0 Influence has downsides: -Peasant Estate Satisfaction

Buddhist Sects and Confucian "Avatars": Buddhist sects work like they normally work in Eastern Buddhism, but the number of sects a country can be part of depends on the influence of Buddhism in their society as seen above. Confucian “Avatars” use a mechanic like that of Avatars in Hinduism to select a Confucian school rather than an avatar/deity. The idea is allowing for the player to select Confucian schools without having to join yet another IO relating to that. List of Confucian schools:

• Lixue
• Xinxue (arguably can be around at start date but maybe can be available only in 1500s)
• Yongjia
• Yongkang (originally forgot to list)
• Taizhou (China, 1500s)
• Zhedongxue (China, 1650s)
• Kaozhengxue (China. 1650)
• Sŏngnihak (Korea, 1400s)
• Silhak (Korea, 1600)

Religious Action Buttons:

• Elevate Creed (Choose to increase one of the modifiers at 40 to 50)
• Organize Theological Debate (Event that raises a chosen modifier and lowers all others)
• Donate to Institutions (Spend money to increase Daoism or Buddhism by an amount)
• Harmonise Relations (Puts a religion at 20 - the worst modifier level, but gain stability from that)
• Burn Texts (Radical approach that drops a modifier to 0 but with bad consequences such as upsetting people)
• Join / Leave Buddhist Sect (if applicable)
• Disfavour / Promote Buddhist Sect (if applicable)
• Choose Confucian School (avatar system)

Confucianism and Daoism in Shinto / Eastern Buddhism:
I would suggest removing Confucianism and Daoism as Buddhist sects based on this approach and instead have Shinto have a “Implement/Oust Confucianism” that gives access to the Confucian “avatars” mechanic described above. As for Eastern Buddhism, maybe give it the ability to sacrifice a Buddhist sect and disable it in return for also “Implement Confucianism”. Alternatively just make a sect called “Confucian Influences” that gives access to the Confucian “avatars” mechanic in both Shinto and Eastern Buddhism, though that is more boring.

Korea and Vietnam: As mentioned I think this gameplay should also apply to Korea and Vietnam. At game start, Buddhism should be in a position of much greater relevance in both countries than either Confucianism or Daoism. I would suggest 50 for Buddhism, 40 or 30 for Confucianism and 10 for Daoism. Daoism was around as a distinct practice and belief system in Korea, and even received patronage, I might add. In Vietnam, they should possibly have their own version of Sanjiao and Daoism can be renamed possibly to the Vietnamese folk religion as it did not survive and thrive independently from it. So instead of “Daoist Influence”, have it be “Đạo Lương Influence” but be mechanically similar. Notice that this does not apply to musok in Korea!

TIBETAN BUDDHISM

I would suggest adding a bonus of less hostility between members of the same sect, and increased Antagonism between countries of a different sect. This provides an impetus for Tibetan states to comply with the more dominant school, as came to be the case with the supremacy of the Gelug school.

Tibetan Buddhism has a strong idea of the inseparability of politics and religion (there is a Tibetan term for this, which I forgot and can’t find). Would be interesting if Tibetan religion inherently had content or mechanics to stimulate the political relevance of the lamas.
Possibly add a resting: +5%/+10% Clergy Power to Tibetan Buddhism.

Add a special diplomatic interaction for Tibetan Buddhist theocracies where they can seek support and patronage of any non-Theravada Buddhist rulers. Akin to support of the Teutonic orders that you have in Europe. Giving them support provides the ruler in question with boosts to diplo rep or legitimacy or something else.
This is to represent the consistent pursuit of foreign patronage we see with Tibetan lamas, not only in the Yuan dynasty but also across all later Chinese dynasties and with Mongol and nomadic rulers.

Also add an event that leads to the creation of Gelug if that already doesn’t exist.

 

[titan.bevel]

If the printing press institution provides long lasting bonuses to Europe in the 1700s (more than 200 years after it started) but not to China then I'd be happy with that being part of the picture.

I'm assuming it works more like EU4 and so an institution can't be relied on as the source of a long lasting difference in literacy rates.

The comparison with Catholic countries may indeed be a useful comparison.

Sadly possible, but then I'd rather have the team focus on representing accurately the reasons that made printing press more easily accepted in Europe than in China, even 200 years after the institution spawned, than on "lumping in" a religious bonus to mask that problem. I guess we'll see how institution actually expand only in longer YTuber playtests / once we can try the game and we'll give feedbck and the tinto team will work on refining stuff from there.

 

[old rabbit]

Hi @Pavía @Roger Corominas so here are the recommendations I would make to improve the system. Historical sources for my claims can be found spread out across my different previous posts on the subject.

I have tried to make these suggestions as simply and easy to implement as possible, and hope that I have achieved it. I also would like to comment that I am a bit skeptical of the that claim Korea should receive its own native version of Sanjiao, see below as to why.

KOREA AND VIETNAM'S SITUATION




GAMEPLAY CHANGE FOR SANJIAO



TIBETAN BUDDHISM

1. Đạo Lương is non-Catholic Vietnamese. using that term during this period makes as much sense as the pre-contact Maya called themselves Indians. Just call it Vietnamese folk or something like that, as the common Vietnamese term is literally "traditional/folk belief".
2. why Burgher/merchant happy with high Confucianism influence? are they supposed to be the lower class in the Confucianism hierarchy?
3. why hardcap at 50? For examples in the Joseon situation, why can't I push Confucianism to 80%?

 

[donbg]

1. Đạo Lương is non-Catholic Vietnamese. using that term during this period makes as much sense as the pre-contact Maya called themselves Indians. Just call it Vietnamese folk or something like that, as the common Vietnamese term is literally "traditional/folk belief".
2. why Burgher/merchant happy with high Confucianism influence? are they supposed to be the lower class in the Confucianism hierarchy?
3. why hardcap at 50? For examples in the Joseon situation, why can't I push Confucianism to 80%?

1. I just didn't want to have a simplistic name like Vietnamese folk and we see PDX doing it with Romuva but yeah you're right.

2. Well there are a couple of points. We don't know how Confucian scholar-officials are going to be represented. Technically landowner class could be used (we saw this in the Korea Tinto), but the landowners also existed separately with their own interests, and many wealthy mercantile families often had members part of the scholar-official ranks. Many scholar-officials themselves became merchants, and the distinction between landowners, merchants and scholar-officials was not rigid. By the late Ming dynasty, for example, the merchant classes had attained extensive acceptance and both the Ming and Qing dynasties were quite laissez faire in terms of the internal market economy (with exceptions - e.g. state monopoly on salt). Confucianism has a large history of encouraging the state to avoid intervening in the economy and keeping taxation low, though the accumulation of wealth was always looked down upon. Merchants themselves throughout the Ming and Qing were very well-versed in Confucianism and patrons of Confucian study and spread. We should also note that it isn't like Confucians were also tolerant always with landowners - Taizu of Ming's land reforms weakened the landowners heavily and used a Confucian reasoning to justify it, just as an example. Nevertheless, the biggest support to Confucianism was drawn from both of these two classes, who supplied the bulk of the scholar-official class (though naturally landowners were better represented).

3. Can be at 80, it's just a number I chose to avoid having way too many steps but it can be extended to 100 or to just 5 or 10. That would depend on balance and how easy it is to shift the levels. They aren't meant to be a percentage like (50% or 80%).