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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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Johan please change the UI I'm begging you
Looks fine to me.

Clear information, no barriers to understanding, no obnoxiously bright backgrounds, small amounts of negative space to separate elements without making them look like they're adrift at sea.

My only complaint is the inconsistency of typeface.
 
Were there cities which were clearly larger than a location in "Caesar" before the post-enddate industrial revolution made rapid transit possible?
How big's a location?
 
This game, like all new paradox games, will probably have 3d characters. And if this EU5 then I want the custom nation designer, and also because it will have 3D characters, I would also like CK3's custom character designer implemented with it.
 
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I feel that should be the opposite. Increasing taxes should upset your estates immediately, but over time they might get used to the new reality (at least if they can manage their essential basic needs like bread for peasants and diamond encrusted gloves for the nobility)

I guess it's a deliberate choice to prevent too much chaos from players that play around with the sliders too much, but I'd feel you should be rewarded for planning ahead and introducing your tax increase in several steps to make it more acceptable
Though as far as I can tell, in Europe the way it worked was that in order to change the sliders at all you needed to convene the estates.
 
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The mention of trading food makes me wonder if the exchange of old world (wheat, rice, cattle) and new world (Potatoes, corn, tomatoes) crops and livestock will be modeled? This could provide reasons for tribes not being able to settle. (E.g. The Tupiniquim in brazil need to wait until they have access to corn if they want to settle)

This would have some potential for some really interesting alt history (E.g. the Maori go to Australia and bring Kumura (sweet potatoes), taro, yams and dogs with them, start a settlement and those things spread to the locals which ends up the local Aboriginal tribes settling)
 
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Excess gold from the new world was a huge factor in bankrupting the Spanish Empire. Tons of gold makes gold less valuable. No real different from the Weimar Republic printing tons of marks in the post-WWI era where money became essentially worthless and people would burn it since it was cheaper than wood or coal.
I know, I am saying is that having a lot of gold doesn't have the same effect on inflation as spending all that gold has.
 
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Though as far as I can tell, in Europe the way it worked was that in order to change the sliders at all you needed to convene the estates.

I was thinking this too. You could argue that you need legislative approval in later governments as well. So, only absolutist rulers could really change taxation on a whim.

The counter argument is that this is a gameplay thing and there needs to be a way to reduce spending to allow players to adjust when they have overcommitted.

This seems like a good topic for a thread. How should sliders and the estates/legislature overlap?
 
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This game, like all new paradox games, will probably have 3d characters. And if this EU5 then I want the custom nation designer, and also because it will have 3D characters, I would also like CK3's custom character designer implemented with it.
i would prefer better performance than 3d
 
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Will the sliders be adjustable only via "sliding" them, or will we also be able to use typing to set specific amounts? Having the latter would be a nice QoL addition to some of us who like using exact numbers and sometime struggle to get them right with sliders.
 
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yes and yes
So will it be possible to create a state whose primary income is mercenaries? Or will the end of the Age of Condottieri put these foolish ambitions to rest? I'd love to try out a merchant-focused nation with tons of mercenaries.

Also any possibility for Theodoro the nation to be renamed into Gothia? Theodoro the location is fine as is.
 
@Johan
Will the gold we spend on things such as Armies and Court re-enter the economy? For example, when buying weapons for standing army soldier, will the money spent go to the manufacturers of said weapons. Or the wages of the soldiers themselves contributing the pops income.
 
This isn't very related but: In EU4, one of the biggest things that dissappoints me is how rarely things go as they do in real life, at least in Asia. I'm not saying I want a replica of real life because for that I would just binge wikipedia but I have never seen the Mughal Empire (except when I played as it) or Manchu or Qing be formed which is kinda disappointing. I would like to see AIs be "guided" (but not forced of course) so that in 10 campaigns, we may see the Mughals or Qing be formed at least once.
 
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If we get the same amount of personal angst, national memory, complex dynamic, realpolitik and negotiations like 30 years war, I think we got ourselves a very capable Early Modern Era game.

Who our state-chief marries to, which alliances between houses, towns and religious figures we make, how much we create the superstructure of either an enlightened ruler or of an efficient bureaucracy, should all be interesting. If the ruler is weak and hated, things are going to get harder, the Estates will conspire to either puppet or substitute them. Or maybe they are very popular, smart, charismatic, being painted by great artists, with flourishing relations with other mighty rulers, but they screw with the privileges of the nobles and burghers, that ain't gonna end well.

I'm seeing potential for all of this in these early systems! Each dev diary boost's a bit more of my enthusiasm
 
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I think that map should be more 3D in order to look more realistic. This map looks like vic3 map and is good for these ages, but not for medieval times in my opinion, because terrain had bigger impact back then. It would be awesome to see it look more natural :)