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Tinto Talks #71 - 9th of July 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will talk about the Tonal religions! This is a religious group that covers the Mesoamerican religions:

Tonal Religions.jpg

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.



Nahua Ritualism

Let's start with Nahua Ritualism, which is the religion in the group that has more detailed features:
Nahua Ritualism.jpg

This is the panel of the religion:
Nahua Panel1.jpg

Nahua Panel2.jpg

Let’s start with the core mechanic of the Nahua Ritualism, an old EU4 friend, Doom:
Doom.jpg

Doom2.jpg

Doom3.jpg

As you can see, Doom accumulates over time, and the bigger the country is, the more Doom it accumulates. It can be mitigated either by performing some mechanics, such as killing enemies and looting locations, or by some of the Religious Actions. But there’s only one way of completely escaping from it, which is Reforming the religion. This can be achieved by passing by enough Religious Focuses, the former EU4 ‘Reforms’:
Religion Focuses.jpg

These Focuses are a necessary pain, as they give a debuff to your country while they’re active, but you need to accumulate some of them to be able to reform the religion. Here you have some of them.
Elevate God.jpg

Gods1.jpg

Gods2.jpg


Establish Cihuacoatl.jpg


Institute the Flower Wars.jpg


Raise Sacrifice Rate.jpg

Raise Sacrifice Rate2.jpg

These are the available Religious Actions:
Appease Gods.jpg


Host a Ceremony.jpg


War Path.jpg

Flower Wars.jpg

The last action, Reform Society, allows to Reform the religion when enough Religious Aspects have been enforced, but it has a big con: It triggers a disaster, 'Reform Society', which needs to be resolved to become a 'Reformed Nahuatl Society':
Reform Society.jpg

Reform Society Disaster.jpg

Reformed Nahuatl Society.jpg

Reformed Nahua Ritualism.jpg



Maya Ritualism

Let’s talk now about another of the Tonal religions - Maya Ritualism:
Maya Religion Panel.png

Different from Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism doesn’t have any Doom, but centers instead around the concept of the K’atun.
Katun.png

The mechanic revolves around preparing for the K’atun celebrations every 20 years in the game. The player needs to invest resources using the different actions to raise the country’s preparations for the K’atun, measured with the Religious Influence currency.

The country can choose between three degrees of intensity in their preparations, and that will impact the effects they get while preparing for it.
Katun modifier.png

The K’atun will happen on the actual dates according to the historical Maya calendar, so the first one to encounter once the game starts will be in September 1342, with the following ones occurring every 19.7 years (so they will not always be on the same month). Once the K’atun finishes, the country will get an event with different outcomes depending on how much preparation they have been able to accomplish, as well as resetting the value of preparation back to 0.
Katun event.png

Katun bad option.png

Katun celebrated.png

Katun well celebrated.png

Besides the normal preparations, other additional actions can contribute to the gain of Religious Influence:
Maya Sacrifice.png

Maya Pilgrimage.png

The religion also has other ways to spend the Religious Influence before the end of the K’atun comes, although at the risk of not being fully prepared when it does.
Maya Celebration.png

The modifier granted by the celebration will be different depending on the date on which the ceremony is hosted, varying according to the historical Uinal.

Same as Nahua Ritualism, Maya Ritualism also has gods, some of them are actually the same ones with different names (so we have dynamic naming for gods). For example, Quetzalcōātl and Kukulkan are the same god with dynamic naming.
Mayan Gods.png



Tonal
This mechanics for gods is common to all Tonal religions, as well as many of the Folk Religions. We can now show the religion we have decided to call Tonal, namesake of the Tonal group, gathering under its umbrella beliefs related to those of the Nahua and Maya, but still distinct.
Tonal Panel.png

Tonal Gods.png

The gods of a country of these religions are always present for the countries, but the countries can choose a Religious Aspect to worship a specific god as their patron, doubling the effects of such a god.
Tonal Aspects.png

And that’s all for today! We will come back on Friday, as we will talk in Tinto Flavour about the Aztecs!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 

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This is what I've been trying to say in my original comment - the narrative behind this reformation is very unclear. On the one hand it arises from doing everything the Aztecs historically did, and on the other hand it results in an ahistorical outcome. I hate human sacrifice just as much as the average Paradox forum poster but I didn't understand what this reform has to do with anything. My immediate assumption was that it was just another religious feature copied from EU4.

Maybe, as you said, this reform is a result of overcoming a major revolt that topples the old Aztec religion, and this does seem to be the case since Reform Society happens after a disaster of the same name (which was not showcased at all - hence all the confusion). Such a revolt might have happened if the Spanish didn't conquer the Aztecs when they did, who knows, but this is definitely ahistorical and begs the question why ahistorical content isn't being implemented elsewhere.

Of note too is that the text for Reform Society says they're "abandoning the obsolete beliefs and administration methods of the past", yet we have no mention to the administrative aspect at all (and why is it tied to the religion anyway).
 
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I presume most pagan religions will have patron gods we can pick between. At some point would we be able to get a list so we can suggest god names for different cultures etc!

I’m sure the community would have a vast knowledge and could be good flavour to add
 
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Maybe an unpopular take, but I think you could potentially name the Nahua religion Aztec instead; Nahua is currently used both for the culture and the language of the Nahuas, and the identity of "Aztec-hood" ties into their mythology anyway
 
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I am going to be honest: EU5's simulation-over-boardgame philosophy train seems to have completely missed the Religion station.
 
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I'm all in for a more accurate representation of the Nahuatl religion. But I don't think it's fair to think a more accurate representation should get rid of human sacrifice (at start), or use the "anti racist" prism of "all religions should be equal under the sun". All religions should be as accurately described as possible, but I think it IS true to history that the Nahuatl DID have a flux of human sacrifices, and as such, weren't "sustainable" on the long term.

So I'd say Lord Thanatos comments are a VERY good feedback (tbh as is most of his religious feedback that I saw) that can (at least partially, or maybe totally) be implemented without resorting to misrepresentations. So the "doom" mechanics could be renamed, and more accurately described in the localization text. And require for proper handling not only human hearts but also food and other materials, but the reformation needed does seem accurate. (maybe however it could be as laws and offer various paths of reform available ? Or maybe it is more fitted for a dlc to give laws and options, no idea)
Your argument is based on the idea of the 1,000,000 thousand people sacrificed, as popular culture portrays it.
The historical reality is different. Human sacrifices did occur, but not many people were sacrificed.
The following arguments apply:
1. Archaeologists have not discovered thousands of bone remains from the sacrifices that the Spanish claim the Aztecs (mainly) performed.
2. The population of Mesoamerica could not support such a huge number of sacrificed people.
3. The number of human sacrifices reported by the Spanish conquistadors are inflated figures intended to justify the conquest.

Please, we should educate ourselves and inform ourselves more through scientific articles and books by researchers, and less through blogs.

P.S. The existence of human sacrifices is not being denied, but they were not performed in the numbers mentioned.
 
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Not much to add other than disappointed to see that the way religious faiths are depicted here (and in many non christian religious tinto talks) in a way that doesn't really fit or match the actual faith (DOOM anyone).

It's also disappointing to see that these faiths have to be reformed, yet others don't, I can't help but feel this needs another pass based on some of the great feedback here already.
 
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Disappointed to see the old "you must reform your society" stuff from EU4.... This whole stuff about needing to reform the religion and needing to reform the society, as if there's something inherently wrong with it when compared to the other religions of the time doesn't really feel like it should be in the game. (To readers, it doesn't matter if you feel that your religion is superior or if you think human sacrifice is bad, the game should be built from a much more relativistic perspective).

It is especially strange given how adamant Tinto have been about "yeah we are going historical for release, no alt-history content". Every other religion and every other country in the world gets to expand and have their own religion- except the Aztecs because....?

Yes, the rate at which Aztecs were sacrificing people could be unsustainable in the long term, but they weren't really the only peoples engaged with Nahua religion and yet were the only ones that sacrificed in such a rate. There should be a better alternative in my view to this. Maybe tie Estate Satisfaction to the need for sacrifices directly (estates get upset if you aren't sacrificing enough) and then have a method of reducing the estate demands and pleasing them in the very long-term, without creating a so-called "Reformed" religion. Example, if Mesoamericans survive the European arrival.
 
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I absolutely can't believe that people in this thread are equating Aztec human sacrifice with European wars, witch trials, or anything.
Absolutely baffling to me.

The Aztecs went to war with the explicit purpose of taking prisoners of war to sacrifice, by their priests, on top of a pyramid in large religious ceremonies that included public parades, in order to appease their gods and prevent the end of the world. It was a sadistic eschatological necessity baked into the religious establishment and celebrated, not something that was happening in the sidelines or as a side effect of wars. In some ceremonies the priests ripped their victims' hearts out. In others they were flayed alive. Sometimes their blood was drank. Very often they were tortured before death in front of the crowd.

If anyone has any objections to the idea that the Aztec religion was abhorrently cruel and sadistic to a degree unseen in Europe I'd recommend them to read this. Nothing in Europe even comes close. Even if the Pope personally killed witches in the witch trials it wouldn't come close. I considered writing here the gory details but I'm sure that the mods would have deleted this post if I did.
As abhorrent as the Christian monks of the religious orders who massacred the entire population (women and children) of a city when they conquered it in the Holy Land or worse?
 
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The game begins in 1337. A lot of what's "Aztec" would be formulated after that. While still somewhat under discussion Flower Wars are the key example only being instituted in response to natural disaster about 60 or so years before the Spaniards arrived. I agree as a reform towards "whatever reformed means" though it doesn't make much sense as that's what the Aztecs did IRL as you said.

Edit: Ah sorry you say as much.
Comrade Lord Thanatos's point, I believe, is that they don't require religious reform; all of these options should be integrated into the Aztec (or all Nahua religion and culture) policies of the state. That is, they are more a part of state policy than a part of religion.
 
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Comrade Lord Thanatos's point, I believe, is that they don't require religious reform; all of these options should be integrated into the Aztec (or all Nahua religion and culture) policies of the state. That is, they are more a part of state policy than a part of religion.
No yeah I agree. I didn't finish his post when posted. I pointed out what he pointed out that the "reformed" version includes things that the Aztecs did or would do IRL anyway. Like flower wars were relatively new for example. So was the Actec faith of OTL the reformed version or not and so on.
 
Yes, the rate at which Aztecs were sacrificing people could be unsustainable in the long term, but they weren't really the only peoples engaged with Nahua religion and yet were the only ones that sacrificed in such a rate. There should be a better alternative in my view to this. Maybe tie Estate Satisfaction to the need for sacrifices directly (estates get upset if you aren't sacrificing enough) and then have a method of reducing the estate demands and pleasing them in the very long-term, without creating a so-called "Reformed" religion. Example, if Mesoamericans survive the European arrival.
Here the argument that the millions of human sacrifices are not true is just a myth.
 
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Here the argument that the millions of human sacrifices are not true is just a myth.
Link doesn't work sadly. From my understanding, the topic in history is a contentious one and the pro-"lots of sacrifice" viewpoint is still dominant, though of course not adhering to the exaggerated numbers of 100K people, etc. But I could be wrong.
 
So this might be completely ahistorical but when I read:

"When the maximum Doom is finally reached, the Ruler and their entire Dynasty are sacrificed, and replaced with a new ruler."

I can't help but think 'what if the ruler and/or their dynasty don't want to be sacrificed' (or from a gameplay point of view, you want to desperately cling on to them because they have good stats for example).

Would it be possible that, for example:
- You reach 100 doom.
- You get an event whether to willingly sacrifice your ruler+dynasty (maybe tiny temp boost in estate satisfaction or something if you agree?)
- If you choose the other option, a disaster starts. It will have increasing maluses on satisfaction/control/unrest. Every so often rebellions will start with either the goal to tear apart the country or sacrifice the ruler+dynasty.
- The disaster ends if doom gets reduced to below a certain threshold or the ruler+dynasty has been sacrificed.
 
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Okay, seriously, Doom is back?

Why, when it has no links to real Nahua religion do you insist on bringing back the most inaccurate aspect of EU4's mechanics? Where do you get the idea that people rose and sacrificed their rulers? Most sacrifices were prisoners of war, and were not to placate angry gods, but to return the divine energy in a person's heart - their Teyolía - to the sun and keep it - the god Tōnatiuh - shining. This is because the Nahua believed that the world has ended four previous times and is now in the fifth age. The day the world could end was marked as being every 52 years, at the intersections of their solar and ritual calendars, this is the day of the largest ritual observance, the New Fire ceremony.

I can see a mechanic for mass unrest if you don't contribute enough for the New Fire ceremony, but that sacrifice is not only composed of captured prisoners, but also food, drink, and goods. There might also be goods given to the rain or harvest gods or to ancestors for favour.

Where is all the stuff that actually feels like authentic Mesoamerican religion? Where is the practice of stealing defeated group's gods for your pantheon or the effigies of gods brought for rituals and to war - where they might be captured? Where are the god impersonation rituals? Where is the new fire festival that you're actually adulterating with the doom mechanic? The human sacrifice is also far more fascinating than you're making it out to be. Sure, some sacrifices were nobodies, but others were dressed as, and treated as gods for a year before sacrifice - and I don't mean that as a metaphor - they were actually seen as being a living god.

Hopefully that stuff just wasn't talked about, because this is by far the least accurate religious setup so far - and I don't even think it looks nearly as fun as it could be. This is a fascinating religious group and you're just representing the pop-religious aspects. Armies literally stealing the gods of their defeated foes and putting them in their own temples is metal and entirely real, but you focus instead on Apocalypto level representations instead.

(P.S The religion practiced by the Maya should be called 'Maya ritualism', not 'Mayan ritualism'. Mayan is just the name of the language, Maya is the adjective and demonym)
Between this and Shinto being based on "honor", I really think a cultural sensitivity pass is needed for the religions team. It's far more egregious here though, given this is a religion that was genocided by one of the "main characters" of this era. It's like if Poland had a light bulb installation focus in HoI4.
 
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Link doesn't work sadly. From my understanding, the topic in history is a contentious one and the pro-"lots of sacrifice" viewpoint is still dominant, though of course not adhering to the exaggerated numbers of 100K people, etc. But I could be wrong.

Table: Comparison of Mexica Sacrifice Estimates (Historical vs. Archaeological Sources)


Event/ContextHistorical Source (Chronicler/Codex)Historically Reported FigureArchaeological Source/Key StudyArchaeologically Corroborated Figure/EstimateComment/Critique
Huey Tzompantli (general)Bernal Díaz del Castillo100,000 skullsArchaeological reconstructions of the tzompantliMax. 1,800 skullsSignificant discrepancy; historical figures are logistically impossible for the structure.
Huey Tzompantli (general)Fray Diego Durán80,000 skullsUrban Archaeology Program (excavations)~1,000 individuals (excavated remains)Excavations confirm the existence of the tzompantli and the practice, but not the reported scale.
Huey Tzompantli (general)Andrés de Tapia136,000 heads "without the towers"Huey Tzompantli discovery (2017)>650 skullsCorroboration of the existence of a large skull structure, but with more realistic numbers.
Dedication of the Templo Mayor (1487)Codex Telleriano-Remensis (gloss)20,000 menModern cardiologist's time estimates per sacrificeExaggerated, physically impossible figures (min. 20 min/sacrifice)The ritual complexity and time required make the higher figures unfeasible.
Dedication of the Templo Mayor (1487)Spanish clergy (later accounts)>200,000 enemy warriorsMajority of historians and archaeologistsConsidered "exaggerated" and "part of the real history" but not to that magnitudeColonial and propagandistic bias to justify the conquest.
Offering 48 (Child Sacrifice)16th Century documentary sourcesThe Mexica also paid with their own childrenTemplo Mayor Project (López Luján)At least 42 children (22 boys, 6 girls identified)Concrete example of mass sacrifice with archaeological evidence and precise temporal context.


In short, there is no debate about the numbers. Modern researchers and archaeologists have the data, and it shows that the thousands of human sacrifices are a myth.

This critique is based on several points. First, Spanish accounts were often written with the clear purpose of "denigrating indigenous peoples and justifying various actions taken against them." Conquerors, missionaries, and colonial officials "had reasons to promote the image of cruel, barbaric sacrificers and cannibals as justification for their own military and spiritual conquest." The exaggerated figures served a clear political and moral purpose for the Spanish: to demonize indigenous practices, legitimize the conquest, and justify the imposition of a new religious and social order. Second, the extensive use of metaphors in the Nahuatl language may have led to "misinterpretations of sacrificial ceremonies" by the chroniclers.
 
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Some spelling/grammar issues:
  • Establish the Cihuacoatl position - "... by making the Cihuacoatl handling the city ruling so that the ruler can deal with the important issues." is rather awkward
  • Institute the Flower Wars - "... we can agree on fair combats with our neighbours ..." is also pretty awkward
  • Appease the Gods - "... sacrifices will be carried on." should probably be "will be carried out" instead
  • Reform Society - "Starts the Reform Society DisasterIf successful..." is missing a space after Disaster
 
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For the Maya, will there be a special event for the beginning of the 12th b'ak'tun on Sep 18, 1618? It's the only b'ak'tun start during the game period (they only happen every 394 years, or 20 k'atuns), and if you have to organize something special for just a mere ka'tun, I imagine you'll need something quite spectacular for a new b'ak'tun!

(The start of the 13th b'ak'tun in 2012 was the root source of all of the "the Maya say that the world will end in 2012" stuff around that time)
 
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I presume most pagan religions will have patron gods we can pick between.

Yep, they literally said so in the TT: "This mechanics for gods is common to all Tonal religions, as well as many of the Folk Religions."

For this alone I'm positively sure they'll have a TT for Folk Religions, if only to work as a repository for pagan gods feedback.
 
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The analogy is that their both keeping to the law not sacrificing anything outside of it. Again do you see executing killers - murder being condemned in nearly all religions - as human sacrifice. If so you're
A) Wrong
B) Pointless to consider this with

> kill the witch because god wants us to kill them
Is the wrong way to look at it is the point and again.

Even thinking about it the Aztecs were never commanded besides to do this. They did is as a sacrifice (lol) to help stave off the fates of the last 4 worlds. Divine command (of which your examples aren't even always that and again don't always apply) and carrying out isn't sacrifice.

> I don't get why you are acting like
Don't make it weirdly personal.
You're the one that keeps calling me a weasel.

I don't see why a law informing a religion doesn't mean that the religion isn't practicing human sacrifice. Why don't you give your definition of human sacrifice, because mine is 'religious rules stipulating the ritualistic execution of other human beings'.
 
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