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Tinto Talks #73 - 23th of July 2025 - Middle Kingdom

Hello and welcome to another happy edition of our Wednesday Tinto Talks. This week we will continue our eastern focus with a look at the core mechanics related to China: The Middle Kingdom and a disaster related to it, the Influence of China.

The Middle Kingdom is represented in game with an International Organization, with the Celestial Emperor (or Huángdì) as its leader.
Middle Kingdom tooltip.png

Middle Kingdom Panel.png

A usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.
The IO itself has territory assigned to it, what it considers to be its core territory. In the mapmode, that’s represented by solid colors, when owned by a country inside the IO and purple stripes when not currently owned by a member of the IO.
Middle Kingdom Map.png

Territory outside the IO but owned by a member of it is colored in stripes of different colors: yellow for the Celestial Emperor, green for the regular members, and bright green for the Celestial Governors - these colors are WIP, and a matter of review, not final.

Speaking about that, what is a Celestial Governor? They are members of the Middle Kingdom to which the emperor has granted special privileges, giving them some nice bonuses:
Celestial Governor.png

Countries can join the Middle Kingdom freely as long as they are not a subject, and either have their capital in Asia or have the appropriate cultural or religious groups. Subjects of the Celestial Emperor, however, will automatically join it.

Once a country is inside the Middle Kingdom, they will still be allowed to pursue their own diplomacy and wage their own wars (as long as they are not a subject type that forbids that), but they will also benefit from the protection of the Emperor, who may come to their assistance if they are attacked by an external threat (although that is not a guarantee). Also, they will be participating in the Tribute System.
Tribute System.png

Historically, the tribute system of China was manifested through tribute missions between the various countries and the current ruling dynasty, conducted at various frequencies. Countries would offer gifts to the Emperor for the Son of Heaven to recognize their rule, and they would get gifts of greater value in return.

In the game, this back and forth is simplified and abstracted to a payment that the Emperor has to perform, and the resulting money is divided among all members, according to their economic power. The emperor gets a slider in their economic panel to determine exactly how much tribute they are willing to pay, at the risk of losing Celestial Authority if the resulting tribute is too low.
Tribute Slider.png

Celestial Authority does not have any passive effect, but there is much content tied to it, with some risks involved if let to fall too low. Additionally, many actions require the use of Celestial Authority:
Laws and Actions.png

First off, let’s start talking about the Laws, as they define how the Middle Kingdom operates and also affect which actions will be available:
Administrative laws.png

Socieconomic Laws.png

Provincial governorship.png

Keju law.png

Outwards view.png

Codified Tribute.png

For example, ‘Conducting a Kējǔ Examination’ will only be possible as long as the ‘Direct Appointment’ policy is not active, while the appointment of new Celestial Governors can only be made if the ‘Codified Cèfēng Tǐzhì’ policy is active.

Let’s now look at the actions in more detail. For starters, as it was already mentioned, Conducting a Kējǔ Examination will allow the recruitment of a new capable character, with some historical characters being able to appear from it.
Exam event.png

‘Strengthen Ministry’ will allow the country to strengthen one of the 6 traditional ministries in Chinese administration, with varying effects. Some ministries will also be available to affect the outcomes of other actions.
Ministry of Personel.png

Ministry of Personel Modifier.png

Ministry of justice.png

Ministry of justice modifier.png

Lastly, the Proclaim Decree action will allow the emperor to choose a decree to enable for some temporary benefits, but it will also cost some Celestial Authority. The effects of the decrees last only for a short while, but are scaled by the amount of countries in the Middle Kingdom, the Emperor’s own Cabinet Efficiency, and other factors such as certain Ministries having been expanded.
Decrees.png

Additionally, the more decrees proclaimed, the less Celestial Authority that the Middle Kingdom will gain each month, representing the increasing complication of bureaucracy. However, the emperor can choose to ‘Reshape the Bureaucracy’, eliminating the accumulated penalty on Celestial Authority gain due to decrees.
Reshape Bureaucracy.png

Another thing you may have noticed in the Middle Kingdom panel is something called Eunuch Power. At some point, China will have the option to empower the eunuchs. Doing so will open the gates to some events and effects related to them, but that will be for you to discover, as this Tinto Talks is already getting long enough, and I still have another topic to discuss - a new, unique Societal Value.

Let’s now move to take a look at China from the outside and see what happens when a foreign country interacts with it. If a country not belonging to the Chinese culture group enters the orbit of China, it will unlock the Sinicized vs Unsinicized societal value:
Sinicized tooltip.png

Sinicized tooltip 2.png

Like other societal values, a country has many tools with which to nudge it towards one extreme or the other. However, what matters to us today is what happens when they reach high levels of Sinicization. Any free country that goes beyond 90 towards Sinicization and is less powerful than China may fall under the ‘Influence of China’ disaster
Sinicization disaster tooltip.png

Sinicization disaster staring event.png

There will be many possible events firing during it, in which the country will navigate between continuing to be influenced by Chinese culture, or establishing its own cultural independence.
Sinicization event7.png

Sinicization event 7 option.png

Sinicization event 8.png

Sinicization event 8 option.png

To get out of the disaster, the country has various options. For once, they will get out of it if they are no longer sinicized, there is not a China to which to compare them to, or they are already stronger than it. Alternatively, they can resolve the disaster via taking enough decisions towards the same direction in the events firing during it. When the disaster ends, a final event will fire, with options and results dependent on which exactly has been the way to exit the disaster.
Sinicization event final.png

You’ll have to play through the disaster yourselves to see all the options though…

And that is all for today. On Friday we will continue with a Tinto Flavour about China, and in next Wednesday’s Tinto Talks, we’ll have the final puzzle piece for the Chinese content - the Red Turbans Rebellion situation, and the Crisis of the Chinese Dynasty disaster. We hope to see you on both!

And remember: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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Will there be Sinicization for cultures like in EUIV? I mean, sinicized cultures may be regarded belong to the Chinese culture group
 
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Countries can join the Middle Kingdom freely as long as they are not a subject, and either have their capital in Asia or have the appropriate cultural or religious groups. Subjects of the Celestial Emperor, however, will automatically join it.
If, under my rule, Cheng Ho’s successors were to establish outposts in East Africa, or even go so far as to colonise the Americas, would I truly be unable to bring those countries into the Middle Kingdom other than by turning them into subjects? Could the conditions for joining not be relaxed, say — if their capital is not in Asia, but their capital possess a location within the same market, or an adjacent market, controlled by the Huangdi, then they might join?

That way, I could at last make the ancient ideal of “Under the wide heaven, All is the king's land” more than just a lofty saying.XD
 
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Then you should use historical and traditional ethnic clothing on both side, especially do not use the Manchu clothing......or a lot of Chinese players will be angry, cuz the F* Manchu can not represents China , not to mention representing the Han people.
Sinicization is a thing for non-Han people and nations. Han can't sinicize, they're already Chinese.
 
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Why isn't Liaodong considered the core territory of IO? China has established control in the region since the Warring States period, and successive dynasties continued to set up prefectures and counties there. A large number of Han people also settled in Liaodong, and for a long time, Han people in the Central Plains regarded Liaodong as an inherent part of China. Why do you think it's not IO's core territory?
 
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I'll note again on the island of Sakhalin- I don't think it's accurate to show that the island is occupied by the Yuan. What they did was extract tribute from the Nivkh people on the island- it makes more sense if the Nivkh are an SoP the Yuan take tribute from. That said, I don't know if the way SoP's currently work if that's something you can do.
 
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The Manchu were chosen precisely because they are the ones that during the game's time period start uncinicized but then sinicize and end up even forming the Qing Dynasty. That's why they are present on both sides of the illustration, in their uncinicized Jurchen version on one side, and in their sinicized Qing version on the other.
So this is a 'Spiderman pointing at Spiderman' situation.
 
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Why isn't Liaodong considered the core territory of IO? China has established control in the region since the Warring States period, and successive dynasties continued to set up prefectures and counties there. A large number of Han people also settled in Liaodong, and for a long time, Han people in the Central Plains regarded Liaodong as an inherent part of China. Why do you think it's not IO's core territory?
Apparently it's just not fundamentally Chinese as (checks IO Middle Kingdom Map) Yunnan.
 
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Apparently it's just not fundamentally Chinese as (checks IO Middle Kingdom Map) Yunnan.
If we are to speak of the core territory, we must necessarily discuss history. The Han Dynasty's shaping of the spirit of the Han people is absolutely not something that can be ignored. It was precisely because the Han Dynasty conquered Southern Yue, the Hexi Corridor, the Western Regions, Liaodong, and Korea, and defeated the Xiongnu, that the core territory of the Han people came to be formed. After the Han Dynasty, the Han people's concept of the scope of Han land was the extent of the thirteen commanderies of the Han Dynasty. Therefore, Liaodong as a core territory is absolutely beyond doubt
 
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Sinicization wasn't a one way process where primitive tribes turned civilized only by kowtowing to Chinese emperors. The Manchus had already built advanced states like Jin and Later Jin long before the Qing dynasty Depicting them as fish skin wearing tribes is an outdated stereotype. Moreover, Sinicization was a cultural exchange not simply Manchus giving up their identity for Han Chinese culture. So PDXs artistic choice doesn’t have to show a simplistic before and after narrative
However, the problem is that the current illustration does not reflect the elements of sinicization at all. Is the left standing by the table drinking tea sinicization? Or is the change of clothes to blue sinicization? And according to your statement, does the right wearing a felt hat and riding a horse mean no sinicization?
In the final analysis, when the word sinicization is expressed through external symbols, you must give the viewer a direct and clear impression, rather than the current inexplicable thing. Even if the court is a stereotype, it is much better than the current incomprehensible one.
 
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This looks really great. A whole bunch of new and interesting mechanics, and even that which has been carried over from EU4 - such as the decrees mechanic - has been revamped and improved.

At the very top of the IO screen it says "Celestial Governors: 1" next to a round bar that appears to be a quarter full. Does that mean there's a maximum of 4 Celestial Governors? What determines that limit?
Is the core territory of the IO locked to only the China region, or can it be expanded like the HRE?
It seems very beneficial to be a Celestial Governor - the base bonuses, larger bonuses from IO laws - but what incentive is there for the Emperor to appoint Celestial Governors?
You mentioned that Celestial Governors can only be appointed if Codified Cefeng Tizhi is enacted, but the screenshot didn't show other policies for that law. What are the other options?
If the strength of decrees is scaled to the number of countries in the IO, wouldn't that incentivise the Emperor to not centralise and own territory directly, but instead create as many tiny subjects as possible to maximise the decree strength? What if it was also scaled according to the size of the members to avoid that sort of min-maxxing?
What are the effects of the outcomes of the Influence of China disaster? Does embracing China's influence make you a direct vassal of the Emperor? Does it change your culture to a sinicised version in the Chinese group, a la EU4? Does resisting China's influence remove you from the IO, or simply preserve your independence?
Since this doesn't have the Celestial Reforms of EU4, specifically the reform that allowed the Emperor to convert tributaries into vassals, my guess is that embracing China's influence in the disaster will convert IO members into vassals, so the Emperor's gameplay loop will involve trying to maximise sinicisation in IO members so they eventually embrace China's influence and become vassals, allowing the Emperor to annex them and consolidate control. What tools does the Emperor have to increase sinicisation in IO members?

The UI design you've been using for when policies have different effects under different circumstances isn't very clear. For example with the Established Provincial Governors policy, do all members get reduced rebel growth, or is it only the Emperor? It doesn't specify who that effect is for. The use of bullet points doesn't make clear that these are conditions to get the following effects. Really they should say "IF [Country] has 'Celestial Governor' status". Why not use ticks and crosses to show if these conditions are fulfilled?

Provincial governorship.png


In the Strenghten Ministry of Justice action, "Will get better results when we Proclaim Decree of Issue Greater Warnings" is strange phrasing and bad English. I would suggest something similar to the phrasing for the Ministry of Personnel above, e.g. "Will get better results when we Issue Great Warnings with the Proclaim Decree Action".
In the Reshape Our Bureaucracy action, the description says "Reform our Bureaucratic systems by returning the political structures of the Middle Kingdom" but doesn't say what it returns them to. It might be better to say "by restoring the political structures" or "by returning the political structures of the Middle Kingdom to their traditional form".
In the Our Stand Amidst the Peril event, the description of the "We will trust Yuan" option says "We gain Embraced Sinicization for until the the ongoing disaster ends". "for until" is again bad English. It would be better if it said something like "for as long as the ongoing disaster lasts".
 
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This is not an appropriate icon—the Qing Dynasty only represents 200+ years of Chinese influence. There are many other symbols that could better and more accurately represent China, such as a Chinese imperial edict seal or something similar, rather than a one-sided Qing-style mandarin hat.

Regarding the game's art design: In the game's 500-year timeline, the first 300 years are related to the Ming Dynasty (in fact, a significant portion of players may only play the first 300 years). However, I currently see no Ming-related artwork, while the later 200 years—featuring the Qing Dynasty (which may not even rise as it did historically in the game)—occupy far more art resources (for example, the completely inappropriate 'Sinicization' icon, which no one would like except the Qing itself, and no other country would ever adopt such a style). Your game needs more Ming elements instead of being overly fixated on the Qing, which most ordinary Chinese people do not like—this could even provoke反感 (disgust) among many Chinese players.
 
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Countries can join the Middle Kingdom freely as long as they are not a subject, and either have their capital in Asia or have the appropriate cultural or religious groups.
Just imagine Portugal adopts Sanjiao joins the MIddle Kingdom (Then the Portuguese culture is sinicized...)