Tinto Talks #73 - 23th of July 2025 - Middle Kingdom

[blue0china]

Regarding the use of Manchu illustrations for the Sinicisation mechanic, I personally find it somewhat inappropriate, though not entirely unacceptable.

The reason it strikes me as somewhat unreasonable is that, although the Ch’ing dynasty was indeed a successful and exemplary Sinicised regime, its iconic attire and hairstyle were, one could even say, something of a historical accident. In other words, firstly, prior to the Manchus, no Sinicised dynasty had ever forcibly altered the clothing or hairstyles of the Chinese people, as such matters were, for the educated classes, almost a part of their cultural creed. Secondly, the Ch’ing dynasty’s ability to persist in enforcing its queue hairstyle and Manchu dress was due, at least in part, to contingent historical circumstances, and there were even debates about abandoning these policies at certain times. Thus, as an illustration displayed universally for all states undergoing Sinicisation, the image of Ch’ing attire is not particularly representative.

That said, it is precisely because the Manchus, even while Sinicising, did not adopt Han clothing, that they serve as a suitable visual subject to depict the contrast between pre- and post-Sinicisation. After all, if an alien people were outwardly indistinguishable from the Chinese, it would be difficult to convey that they were non-Chinese being Sinicised.

However, in other interfaces, I would prefer not to see icons such as the official hats of the Ch’ing dynasty, for they lack broad representativeness. If a hat icon must be used, I would suggest the black gauze cap, which in East Asia is a widely recognised symbol of officialdom.

 

[SAmaster]

why though? if a foreign power conquest China and become the head, why should they HAVE TO switch to Mandarin and not Japanese/Korean/Mongolian?

I think being the Emperor of CHINA is different than being an Empire in Asia. If you want to adopt the Chinese system of governance, Mandarin seems necessary.

 

[matfer13]

why though? if a foreign power conquest China and become the head, why should they HAVE TO switch to Mandarin and not Japanese/Korean/Mongolian?

Relax liberal! I was just vibe checking Roger and the devs

 

[DVVnb]

1. Yuan Dynasty was never a Chinese/Middle kingdom. Dai Yuan was just sinicized term of GREAT MONGOL EMPIRE, the direct successor of Chinggis Khaan's Empire.

Here is the details:

840-1035. Mongol tribes were under Liao empire (Liao were mongols, but half urbanized and sedentary).
1035-1189. Mongol tribes were under nobody's control. They were struggling for internal conflicts for 150 years.
1189-1206. Temujin, a son of Mongol Chieftain (Khan) from Khamag Mongol khanate, became the main political figure amassing enough support from other khanates.
1206-1260. Temujin declared himself as Chinggis Khaan-Emperor like Ocean (not Khan, but Khaan. The 2 terms are hierarchically different in Mongolian language).

1206-1227. Chinggis started military campaigns outside of Mongol realm, founded Great Mongol Empire. Chinggis Khaan compared himself as Xiongnu (Huns) Emperors, his direct ancestors. Chinggis had four sons, Jochi (Jochid successors), Chagatai (Chagataid successors), Ogedei (Ogeteid successors) and Tolui (Toluid successors).

1228-1260. After Chinggis death, there were 3 Great Khaans, Ogedei, Guyug (Ogeteid), Mongke (Toluid). By 1260 Great Mongol Empire was between Pacific ocean and Black sea, Mediterranean sea, Indian ocean. Baltic sea. By the death of Mongke, his brothers started the war for the succession, so were the Imperial nobles divided.

1261-1368. Khubilai, the Toluid grandson of Chinggis Khaan won the succession war and his Toluid brother Arigbokhe lost his cause. Khubilai continued Great Mongol Empire tradition and statehood, but he changed the capital from Karakorum to Xanadu, and then newly built Khalbagasun (City of Emperors in Mongolian) later renamed as Beijing by Ming dynasty. Khubilai used chinese advisors for the administrative policies for Han ethnic regions, but he never intended to promote them to the rank of Imperial High Class. Khubilai used talents from many different ethnicities for the Imperial service. But Khubilai has been never accepted by the Chagataid, Ogeteid successors and Jochid successors were mostly neutral. Khubilai's loyal ally was his other brother Hulegu (Toluid) who was just conquered Middle east and founded his Ilkhanate dynasty.

By the year 1337 there were 4 distinct successor empires
1. Great Mongol /Dai Yuan/ covering whole East Asia. Great Mongol Empire was 1361-1368, and Northern Yuan 1369-1380, Great Mongol empire 1380-1634 (All former Yuan territories except China Proper and Korea), Khanates of Khalkha Mongol 1634-1923 (Modern day Mongolia, Tuva, Buriat, Altai), Federation of Four Oirats and Dzhungarian kingdom 1400-1757 (Modern day Central Asia and Xingjian, Tibet).

2. Golden Horde covering whole Russia and West of Urals, was 1241-1480. It later incorporated onto Russian Czardom until 1800s.

3. Chagataids covering Central Asia 1230-1500. Chagataids were known for their very cultivated palaces and most fearful era began with a mongol military chief Timur /Tamerlan/ in the late 1300s until 1405. Chagataid successor state was Mughals /Indianized name of Mongols or Moghols/ continued the realm in the Indian sub-continent until 1850s.

4. Ilkhanates covering Middle East, Caucasus, Anatolia, 1258-1400. Late Ilkhanates were later incorporated into Timur's new dynasty.


I am from Mongolia and i hope my favorite EU game and its developers will consider the Great Mongolian History who changed the Eurasia.
I have great respect for Han chinese civilization and i admire Tang, Song, Ming dynasties and Modern China. But let's be clear, Yuan was a Mongol dynasty, Qing was a Manchu dynasty.

Thank you EU team. I'll buy EU5 as i bought EUIV together with all the DLCs.

The Yuan Dynasty was undoubtedly established and ruled by the Mongols as part of the Great Mongol State (Yeke Mongγol Ulus). It concurrently represented China, with its rulers holding the dual titles of Great Khan of the Mongol Empire and Emperor of China. This dual identity is well-documented in historical sources. For example, the historical artifact shown in the image below—a replica of Kublai Khan's 1268 state letter to Japan—provides direct evidence.
In this letter, housed at Tōdai-ji Temple's Sonshō-in in Japan and known as the "Mongol State Diplomatic Document" (Chōbuku I Chō Engyoku Shō), Kublai Khan opens with:

‌"By the Mandate of Heaven, the Emperor of the Great Mongol State, to the King of Japan:"‌
He subsequently refers to himself as ‌"We" (朕, zhèn)‌. This letter predates by five years his 1271 formal renaming of the state to ‌"Great Yuan Great Mongol State" (Dai-ö Yeqe Mongγol Ulus)‌.
‌1206–1271‌: Official state title was ‌"Great Mongol State" (Yeke Mongγol Ulus)‌
‌Post-1271‌: Title changed to ‌"Great Yuan Great Mongol State" (Dai-ö Yeqe Mongγol Ulus)‌
Full Text of the 1268 Letter (Recorded in History of Yuan, Vol. 208):
上天眷命大蒙古国皇帝奉书日本国王：朕惟自古小国之君，境土相接，尚务讲信修睦。况我祖宗，受天明命，奄有区夏，遐方异域，畏威怀德者，不可悉数。朕即位之初，以高丽无辜之民久瘁锋镝，即令罢兵，还其疆域，反其旄倪。高丽君臣感戴来朝，义虽君臣，而欢若父子。计王之君臣亦已知之。高丽，朕之东藩也。日本密迩高丽，开国以来，亦时通中国，至于朕躬，而无一乘之使以通和好。尚恐王国知之未审，故特遣使持书，布告朕志，冀自今以往，通问结好，以相亲睦。且圣人以四海为家，不相通好，岂一家之理哉。至用兵，夫孰所好，王其图之。不宣。至元三年八月日
The passage "As for my ancestors, who received the clear mandate of heaven, encompassing the entire China and distant lands, those who fear their might and admire their virtue are too numerous to count" clearly demonstrates his sense of identification as the emperor of China

 

[aantia]

When a country joins the middle kingdom, what does its Sinicised/Unsinicised value start at?

If it starts at zero, that seems weird because they just joined and they're suddenly 50% of the way to being practically Chinese.
If it starts at maximally Unsinicised then they suddenly get these bonuses and penalty, none of which have anything directly to do with their diplomatic relation with China (which is the only thing that has really changed).

 

[FarsenFSD]

Not right now, but it may be a good idea to consider.

This would give a good reason for a player to face the sinicization disaster and become sinicized!

 

[DVVnb]

I'm concerned whether the game system can replicate the natural tendency toward unification in China's core regions. I worry that after an AI-controlled Yuan Dynasty collapses due to events, China ‌would most likely‌ remain fragmented into multiple smaller states for an extended period and fail to reunify—which obviously does not reflect realities.

 

[Gwynbleiddn]

Please stop using anythings from the Manchu-Qing Dynasty to represent China. All Chinese people today hate the Qing Dynasty. If you insist on doing this, it will anger all Chinese players.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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@Roger Corominas

I would suggest adding some migration events for Chinese settlers, for countries which have this special status:

---

 

[NERTR]

We are aware of that, and also the fact that many things considered "Chinese" in the west are actually "Manchu" instead. However, we still thought that it would be clearer if we used the Manchu in both sides. If instead we used pure Han clothing on one side, the resulting image would seem like two different peoples instead of the same one transitioning from uncinicized to sinicized. Sinicization is not to represent the adoption of Chinese clothing, but instead the adoption of Chinese system and culture, and so Qing-style Manchu represent that in our opinion, as they did precisely that.

This doesn't make sense at all. 1. Historically, shaving the head and changing clothes was an attempt by the Manchus to Manchuize the Han people. They didn't try to sinicize from the beginning. It was just that the Manchus failed to resist sinicization in the political structure and were forced to sinicize. Using Manchu clothes to represent sinicization is undoubtedly an insult to Chinese history enthusiasts. 2. Considering the start time of EU5, the Qing Dynasty is still far away, and it may not even be possible to encounter the Qing Dynasty. Even if the Ming Dynasty clothing is not adopted, why not use the Yuan Dynasty clothing to represent sinicization? The Yuan Dynasty retained many Song Dynasty clothing. It is completely incomprehensible to choose the Qing Dynasty.

 

[keaswaran]

They will need to be of the appropriate culture for that.

It seems like any sufficiently sinicized nation should be able to claim the Middle Kingdom. If mongols and jurchens could become sinicized enough over a few centuries, surely Thai, Japanese, Tibetan, Assamese, or even a weird European offshoot that is left inside the Middle Kingdom IO for a few centuries should be able to eventually do it.

 

[NaiveCarto]

After reading this post, it seems to be more contents about the outside influence of one Celestial empire, we cannot see newer mechanics about the inner aspects of Chinese regimes, like the modernization of society, fighters between central government, weak local government, corrupted and strong local officers, local elites and local peasants or residents, great population growth and its influence on society and government, there are too many topics can move on, but also be complex at all, I would be delighter if you could research on inner topics.

 

[Ninking]

1. Basically it means joining the Middle Kingdom
2. Yes, we'll talk about that next week.
3. No, it can't gain nor lose land, as its land

For 3: i think it would both be appreciated by players to be able to expand "IO China", and government censors in China would have less issue with China having static historical borders they might disagree with (it's criminal in China to misrepresent "historical sovereignty" or undermining national unity for example, so they might raise issue with China not including region X.

 

[Druch11]

Call this "Sinicized"? Based on your image, I'd argue it's Manchuricized

 

[BrokenSky]

Unless Spain changed culture to one for which the casus belli of claiming emperorship is available, they would be able to join the IO but not take the leadership.

Surely a fully Sincicized culture is a Chinese culture?

 

[AHumpierRogue]

The Manchu were chosen precisely because they are the ones that during the game's time period start uncinicized but then sinicize and end up even forming the Qing Dynasty. That's why they are present on both sides of the illustration, in their uncinicized Jurchen version on one side, and in their sinicized Qing version on the other.

Sinicization is kind of overrated IMO. I am not actually sure I'd consider the Qing or Manchu super sinicized(tbh, I question the value of the term at times; at least beyond the sense of being "involved in the classical chinese literary world" which is often what it really means, even as almost all other aspects of the cultures of people we claim are "sinicized" remain very traditional.)

 

[DVVnb]

Is there a function in EU5 that is similar to the sinicization in EU4, such as transferring Korean and Vietnamese cultures into the Chinese cultural group. If so, is it achieved through special events, or will there be a universal feature that can be used by more cultures

 

[Druch11]

It is not surprising that the entire tribute mechanism is almost entirely based on stereotypes and does not conform to any form of real history.
Unfortunately, it seems that I need to move the post from CK3 here again.
About Tribute System

This stereotype has been a backward view for many years, especially after examining the list of tribute gifts exchanged by Chinese dynasties in East Asia and Southeast Asia (mainly based on Ming Dynasty records, only because Ming Dynasty records are more detailed).

Firstly, it is necessary to clarify a clearly erroneous viewpoint: tribute countries (rather than Chinese dynasties) always hope to frequently come to pay tribute, because tribute is a way to obtain goods directly from China at a lower cost (rather than indirectly obtaining goods through Chinese or other merchants, such as silk, porcelain, tea, etc.), and obtaining goods is the main source of profit for tribute countries, rather than the gold and silver rewards given by the emperor (in fact, the emperor only rewards a small amount of copper coins).

Regarding the issue of Chinese goods, in fact, this is not a reward from the emperor, but rather a situation where tribute teams are allowed to freely trade goods within China, and the prices of silk, porcelain, tea and other goods in China are much lower than outside China, resulting in a win-win situation to some extent. The tribute country obtained rare Chinese goods by approaching the cost price of the place of origin, which can generate huge profits for both domestic use and resale. In fact, the place of origin of Chinese goods sold these goods at a higher price than the local price, resulting in more profits compared to ordinary trade. Only merchants trading in China and other regions suffered losses.

China's gift-return generally consists of several aspects: symbolic copper coins (rather than gold and silver), objects given by the emperor to the monarchs of tribute countries for use (to show the emperor's importance, usually jade or gold and silver objects), and more importantly, Chinese commodity trade qualifications (such as silk, porcelain, and tea, which is why tribute is usually considered to have trade attributes). In the Ming Dynasty, even the returned copper coins were replaced by paper currency 大明宝钞, and the emperor would forcibly claim that these paper currency had the value stated on paper (however, in fact, they were worthless waste paper due to inflation).

Due to the long-term lack of heavy metal mines (such as copper mines) in Chinese dynasties, it is difficult to consider it reasonable to reward tribute countries with a large amount of precious metals, especially since most of China's tribute countries have heavy metal mines (especially Japan, which has famous copper and silver resources). Compared to precious metal rewards, Chinese luxury goods are more valuable rewards for those tribute countries.

paper currency of Ming Dynasty 大明宝钞

For Korea, the emperors of the Yuan and Ming dynasties even demanded a large number of horses as tribute (even though Korea produced very few horses, which was a form of exploitation by the emperor of the tribute country), which had a huge impact on Korea's national strength. However, due to the importance of luxury goods such as silk and porcelain trade, Korea remained enthusiastic about tribute.

Another example is the Japanese tribute notes during the reign of Emperor Yingzong of Ming Dynasty, which recorded 9,483 Japanese swords as tribute, each valued at 6 guan 贯 copper coins (i.e. 6,000 copper coins), but denominated in paper currency. However, the 6 guan paper currency was actually only worth 30 copper coins in the market, which was a huge loss for Japan. Nevertheless, the Chinese goods purchased by the Japanese tribute team during the tribute period brought them profits of over 90,000 guan copper coins (i.e. 90,000,000 copper coins) upon their return to Japan. (The information comes from the records of Emperor Yingzong of Ming Dynasty 明英宗实录)

Many stereotypes tend to overestimate the value of rebates in tribute to the emperor, without considering that the main item in rebates is artifacts rather than currency. They consider Chinese goods purchased by tribute groups as gifts from the emperor, and often value these goods outside of China, ignoring that these goods are not related to the emperor himself and that China, as the largest producer, only needs to calculate cost prices.

In addition, another legal provision also briefly proves that tribute is not unprofitable. According to the laws of the Ming Dynasty 大明律, if tribute vessels that have not been inspected and confirmed by the government engage in private trade, all relevant personnel will be sent to the military front line (such as Mongolia) as soldiers.

Price conversion of various commodities in Ming Dynasty tribute, pictures from the history of Chinese coastal defense 中国海防史:

One jin 斤 of tribute iron 铁 (593 grams) is estimated to be worth 3.75 copper coins, one jin 斤 of pepper 胡椒 is estimated to cost 37.5 copper coins, while a blue and white porcelain bowl 青花白瓷碗 produced in China is estimated to be worth 3,750 copper coins, and an iron pot 铁锅 produced in China is estimated to be worth 1,875 copper coins (at the same time, the price of an iron pot in the Chinese market is 100 copper coins). Data from the book about the Ming Dynasty 大明会典. Even at several tens of times the price, these goods can still generate huge profits for tribute countries when sold again (especially considering that more Western countries value silk and porcelain with gold and silver, while during the Ming Dynasty, 1 liang 两 (37.3 grams) of silver could be exchanged for 1000 to 1500 copper coins).

About Mandate of Heaven

Furthermore, I completely do not understand the reason for linking the imperial examination, legal reform, and tribute country. These policies are completely unrelated to foreign affairs, and even local governments without any tribute countries still conduct imperial examinations.

As expected, the eunuch was once again emphasized. Even in the era of EU4, when the production team consulted mod creators, we repeatedly pointed out that the eunuch group in the Ming and Qing dynasties did not hold such enormous real power. They are just an extension of the emperor's power, they do not own land locally, and can be freely disposed of by the emperor in the palace without being stopped by anyone. I don't know why Devs has been fixated on the issue of eunuchs in China since the era of EU4. Confucian scholars and landlords are the more important core issues, especially after the imperial examination, Confucian scholars can be exempted from land taxes, and there is also the issue of land consolidation.

About Arts

The emperor's crown should have 12 pearl threads instead of 10.

I don't know why all the art pictures related to China point to the Manchu people, even though China has always been a country dominated by the Han ethnic group in history. All the event images depict Qing Dynasty clothing and Manchu people, and surprisingly, the icon of Chinese influence is the official hat of the Qing Dynasty. Has the Qing Dynasty existed since 1337? The Ming Dynasty, which dominated the gameplay throughout the game, was almost completely ignored in art, and the two opposing images of Manchu people and Sauron Jurchen people in Sinicization were even more inexplicable. Why did Devs choose the Qing Dynasty, which is relatively unique among all Chinese dynasties, as the main object of artistic inspiration?

I don't have an answer.

The Qing Dynasty paid such enormous indemnities to Europeans — no wonder they dearly loved it.

 

[mcmanusaur]

Is European colonization a disaster? Or is it only Chinese influence?

Also, I think Tianxia or Huaxia would work better than "Middle Kingdom" as names for the IO.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

I'm just going to repost a comment I wrote on the CK3 forum here; it more or less states my opinion on "sinicization" and how I feel most more radical western scholars would view it:

Unironically sinicization is overrated. The Khitan Liao managed to maintain their steppe heritage until the end of their dynasty, even if they did adopt chinese literacy and aspects of chinese culture they were ultimately still largely steppe oriented in their culture. The Jin IIRC sinicized a bit more, the Mongols really, really did not, and then the Qing also similarly did not get sinicized and tried very hard to both preserve their own culture and impose Manchu culture on China. Case in point the Queue; at the beginning of the dynasty men were willing to die to avoid having to shave their heads and dishonor their ancestors; by the end many men considered the Queue to be part of their Han chinese identity. The Manchu were more just overwhelmed by the population imabalance in the end, and then when the dynasty collapsed it was expedient to assimilate into the new lead way of things.

So ultimately the track record really isn't that good if you really think on it. It's less a story of "sinicization" and more a story of the pretty high cultural resillience of China, the unparralled size and scope of the chinese scholarly tradition, something that all dynasties tapped into and studied, even if they still tried to maintain a steppe way of life as the Khitan elites did as well as the sheer mass of Chinese. Conquest dynasties were ultimately always very tiny populations ruling over a very huge mass of Chinese, and so if the Conquerors got the boot(Yuan->Ming) or got conquered by someone else(Liao->Jin, Jin->Yuan), the 95% population of Han chinese just sort of kept trucking along. There were not roman colonias of Jurchens, Mongols, and Manchus moving into China, the core population especially in the South(where most people were) remained chinese and they were ruled over by Manchus, either distantly or in local administrative centers that were still overwhelmingly Chinese. That was why Chinese culture survived, not because they just "Absorbed" the conquerors. They only 'absorbed' them in the case where the conquerors lost and had to assimilate under the new regime(or get kicked out) and they otherwise maintained distinctions and an elite status while they were in power.