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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #111 - Subject Improvements

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Happy Thursday, it's time for more Sphere of Influence / Update 1.7 news!

One of the many benefits of being a Victorian-era Great Power is that you might get to lord over not just your own people, but other nations as well. Whether acquired through brutal conquest, colonial machinations, or willing subserviency, countries subjugated under your leadership can benefit your empire in a number of ways:
  • they expand your market
  • they provide you with a share of their Prestige
  • they may compensate you with taxes in exchange for your protection
  • they may join your wars
  • etc.

This doesn't mean subjects will always just lie back and accept you exploiting them. Overlords that see their subjects as nothing but buffer zones and cash cows could in time come to learn that patience can run thin, leading to calls for independence. And in this era of nationalism, your subject declaring their autonomy could prove the perfect pretense for your worst rival to upset the balance of power.

We're introducing a number of enhancements to gameplay around managing your subjects, or indeed managing your own status as a subjugated nation if that's more your speed. These enhancements are meant to improve interactivity and AI responsiveness, while also introducing a number of quality-of-life features and highly requested additional mechanics. Some features below are available in the Sphere of Influence expansion, while others will come to everyone as part of Update 1.7.

Liberty Desire​

The first and most obvious feature you will encounter relating to your subjects in Update 1.7 is Liberty Desire, a measure of how pressing the issue of autonomy and independence is to the people (particularly the ruling class) in the subjugated nation. At high levels, an AI subject could become rebellious and might make some terribly rude demands of their overlord; at low levels, they will be complacent and cooperative, enabling their overlord to relax and maybe squeeze them a bit more, as they please.

For AI countries, Liberty Desire will strongly influence their strategy with respect to their overlord. Four additional AI strategies have been added:
  • Break Free: the AI attempts to become independent from their overlord
  • Increased Self-Reliance: the AI attempts to increase their autonomy and become less dependent on their overlord, but will not seek outright independence
  • Maintain Autonomy: the AI wants to maintain their autonomy and relationship with their overlord just as it is
  • Integrate with Suzerain: the AI wants closer integration with their overlord and will loyally comply with their wishes

But Liberty Desire is not just for the AI, it also informs what human players can do, and the level of Liberty Desire can have a direct effect on the country and its pops as well. The current level of Liberty Desire is visualized much like Legitimacy, as a tiered meter with different effects at different levels. Unlike Legitimacy it is never static - Liberty Desire is always either increasing or decreasing, the question is at what speed and what you (as overlord or subject) will do about it.

The British East India Company, with its largely self-sufficient economy and powerful standing army, could become a problematic subject for Great Britain unless relations and lobbies are kept in check, and concessions may have to be granted to keep them loyal to the crown.
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A multitude of factors play into Liberty Desire, providing you with a lot of different strategies for how to keep it under control (or perhaps increase it, if you're the subject).
  • Relations: obviously, high relations will lower Liberty Desire and vice versa
  • Relative Prestige: the greater the difference in Prestige between overlord and subject the lower the Liberty Desire. The less autonomous your subject is, the greater the Prestige difference you need to maintain to depress Liberty Desire.
  • Economic Dependence and Lobbies: explained in greater detail below
  • Market Isolation or supply problems: if you cannot provide your subject with effective access to your market, they will be more inclined to demand sovereignty
  • Change Rate scaling: the higher or lower Liberty Desire gets, the slower its rate of progression, giving you more opportunities to manipulate it with Diplomatic Actions (which we'll discuss soon)

Economic Dependence​

Another metric introduced in Update 1.7 is Economic Dependence, which measures exactly what it sounds like: how dependent country A is on country B's economy. Economic Dependence doesn't do anything directly, but feeds into other metrics such as Liberty Desire and the Cohesion of Trade League-type Power Blocs.

A major aspect of Economic Dependence is how much of the nation's economy is owned by the other country through foreign investments, either directly or through pop investors. If you want to make your subjects dependent on you, make sure you provide all of their good jobs.

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If you do not share a market with the other country, the secondary aspect of economic dependence consists of the value of trade between your two nations. But in most cases where Economic Dependence matters, you do share a market, which introduces another few factors.

First off, the difference in GDP between the countries in the market has an impact.

But much more interestingly, how much your economy provides for the other nation's pops - and how much they are able to provide for themselves - is a crucial factor. As a market leader, you're considered to be providing anything the market member does not provide for themselves, in this case luxuries like Opium, Fruit, Luxury Clothes, and Tobacco.

The more you're able to provide for yourself, the more you can offset this factor. In this case, Columbia produces most of the Grain they consume, which is their dominant demand. As a result they more than offset the luxuries provided by membership in the British market.

As a result, from the viewpoint of Great Britain, if I want to increase Columbia's economic dependence on me I should consider producing an excess of the goods they aren't able to fully provide for themselves, such as Liquor. Thinking longer-term, I could also try to take measures to make their domestic staple industries unviable, making me the dominant supplier of (for example) Grain or Clothes or Furniture throughout the empire, while my colonial subjects' economies consists of producing cash crops for the benefit of my own people or industries.

Note that this part of the calculation is currently WIP and may be altered for legibility and consistency before release, but the principles will stay the same.
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Lobbies​

In the Sphere of Influence overview we mentioned Lobbies, which are also crucial to keeping Liberty Desire under control across your empire. We will go deeper into Lobbies next week, but for now I can mention that subject nations will almost always have two Lobbies relating to their overlord: one of them a proponent of closer ties with the overlord, while the other is opposed to the overlord and devoted to independence. The relative power of these Lobbies depends on which Interest Groups support them, how powerful those Interest Groups are, and whether or not they are currently in government, which directly feeds into Liberty Desire as well.

As an overlord, with the Sphere of Influence expansion you will have some indirect influence over this by sponsoring the creation and maintenance of lobbies in other countries, which we will learn more about next week. As a subject, you have more direct control: if an Interest Group supports ties with your overlord, you can try to suppress them, remove them from power, even incite them to revolution and defeat them to keep your Liberty Desire high (though beware this could rouse your overlord into supporting their side!).

Subject Actions​

So as a subject, why would you want your Liberty Desire to be high? You actually probably don't want to keep it high, since it can mean less stability in your country (as reflected by greater risk of Radical generation, as people demand their freedom). But when your Liberty Desire has reached a high enough level, you can make demands of your overlord which are hard for them to ignore.

Increase Autonomy: previously available only as a Diplomatic Demand, you can now more gently request an increase to your autonomy when your Liberty Desire is high enough. Should the overlord decline this request the subject can demand full independence, so the stakes are quite high. If the request is granted, Liberty Desire will drop to much more manageable levels.

Demand State: if your overlord controls a state that is both adjacent or a homeland to you, directly or through another subject, you can demand they give you that state under certain conditions.

Request Payment Relief: you can request that your overlord reduce your payment burden. (Sphere of Influence only)

Request Support for Regime: a pact where the overlord provides overt support for your rule, granting you Legitimacy. This is reversible, so the overlord can grant this pact on their own if they wish. (Sphere of Influence only)

Request Knowledge Sharing: a pact where the overlord provides the subject with a tech spread boost, letting them catch up to the state-of-the-art quicker than usual. This is also reversible, letting the overlord display their benevolence unprompted. (Sphere of Influence only)

For example, you might wish to demand an increased level of autonomy, or relief from excessive payments.

Once one of these demands have been accepted your Liberty Desire will decrease, reflecting the diplomatic impact of the concession your overlord agreed to.

Overlord Actions​

Most of the new options are available for overlords towards their subjects, but follow the same principle - if Liberty Desire is low enough you can demand more from your subject, although this is likely to increase Liberty Desire and maybe even cause it to increase over time. Similarly, you can grant special privileges to depress Liberty Desire.

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The following actions will be coming in Update 1.7 / Sphere of Influence:

Increase and Decrease Autonomy: when Liberty Desire is particularly low, the overlord can force a decrease to their subject's autonomy without making a Diplomatic Demand for it. Full annexation is possible only for Puppets / Vassals, and still requires a Diplomatic Demand.

Grant and Take State: a much requested feature, as an overlord you can now benevolently decide to grant territory to your subject. The state you select must belong either to you or another one of your subjects, and must either be adjacent to the subject or a homeland of one of their primary cultures (and in that case, it cannot also be a homeland for another subject that is adjacent, and therefore a better fit). Granting a state will of course reduce Liberty Desire, often by a substantial amount, especially if it's a homeland. Transferring a state from another subject will of course increase the Liberty Desire of the subject you transferred it from. In the case of Puppet or Vassal subjects, you can even transfer their states to yourself if Liberty Desire is sufficiently low (not their capital though).

Exempt from Service: for subjects that are forced to join the overlord's Diplomatic Plays, this pact lets overlords exempt the subject so they stay out of the conflict.

Grant Own Market: cuts the subject off from your shared market and makes them run their own. This could be useful in cases where you want your subjects to be a trading partner rather than fully integrated with your economy, limit migration, or reserve your convoys.

Reduce or Raise Subject Payments: for Subject Types that must pay a tax to their overlord, these "add-on pacts" allow you to either decrease or increase the amount paid in exchange for a change in Liberty Desire progress. (Sphere of Influence only)

Appoint Colonial Governor: lets the overlord select a new Head of State for the subject. The options the overlord has available depends on their laws vis a vis who the subject is - under some laws you could permit a local governor to take charge, while under others only hopefuls from the empire's capital are permitted. (Sphere of Influence only)

Evangelize: spreads the overlord's state religion in the subject, increasing conversion rates. (Sphere of Influence only)

A nifty cheat sheet to remind you of the effects of different subject types and compare between them has been added to the Subjects tab UI, where you also have easy access to the Liberty Desire values of your subjects, sort functions, and a list of the Overlord actions you can issue for each subject. If the symbols aren't self-explanatory to you, they're of course tooltippable!
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Support Independence​

Support Independence is a new Diplomatic Pact, which a country can establish to commit to support another country's subject if they declare independence from their overlord. Once the Diplomatic Play has been declared, any supporters will automatically join on the subject's side. As a side effect this pact also increases Liberty Desire progression in the subject, so over time supporting a subject's independence may lead to greater autonomy if not full independence.

Supporting the sovereignty of your subject's rivals is a common strategy among aspiring imperialists, and subjects looking to become independent can also cozy up to other nations and ask for their support, hypothetically speaking of course.

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Improved Imposition of Laws​

We introduced the ability to impose laws on your subjects in Update 1.5, but at that time the implementation was so rudimentary it was almost like an easter egg for the few who discovered it. In Update 1.7, you can now impose laws on your subjects directly from the Subjects tab.

When you start imposing a law, the other country will get an event where they can respond to the demand. They can choose to outright refuse, which they might do if their Liberty Desire is high or their chance of passing the law is very low.

You will now also be told what their chances of passing the law is before you commit to it.
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They can also choose to start enacting it right away, giving them a +10% enactment chance for the duration, or deferring it until later. If they are already passing a law at the time you send the demand, they can choose to cancel their current law at no penalty in favor of your request, or wait until the time is right. While they're committed to enacting the law, they cannot cancel it until it's complete. They can however abandon the attempt, and may do so if they've made no progress after several years, but this will hurt relations with you.


As a player, your AI overlord may make these demands of you as well, and you have the same options to deal with them.
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Conclusion​

These new interactions with your subjects (or your overlord), informed by the Liberty Desire metric, Economic Dependence system, and Lobbies, is meant to add more difficulty, depth, and interactivity to your imperialist projects - or as a subject, give you the ability to plan for your eventual independence. While most of these mechanics are available in Update 1.7, several of the new interactions are a component of the Sphere of Influence expansion. Some of the mechanics, such as imposition of laws and diplomatic actions limited to countries you have special relationships with, also integrate with the Power Bloc mechanics in Sphere of Influence to give you a more unified way of interacting with countries in your sphere, whether they're subjugated to you directly or merely in the same Bloc as you.

These features also add exciting new potentials for more targeted interactions with specific countries without cluttering up the lens interface where more generic actions are shown, permitting for more custom interactions between countries to be added in the future. Modders should also be able to make good use of the new options we've added to Diplomatic Actions, such as modifier support.

As mentioned earlier, next week Wiz will be back to go into more detail on Lobbies, and what they provide for the upcoming Sphere of Influence expansion. Until then!

Overview for all upcoming Dev Diaries:
Date
Topic
11th April
Lobbies and More on Power Blocs​
18th April
The Great Game​
25th April
The Art of Sphere of Influence​
2nd May
Changelog 1.7​
 
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At the moment it's limited to subjects that share your state religion, and then boosts conversion to that religion. It cannot be used by atheist countries at the moment. We're looking into whether we can make it less restrictive though, so improvements may still happen there.

Under certain circumstances, yes.
Are there any circumstances where an overlord might be able to impose their state religion on a subject?
 
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At the moment it's limited to subjects that share your state religion, and then boosts conversion to that religion. It cannot be used by atheist countries at the moment. We're looking into whether we can make it less restrictive though, so improvements may still happen there.

Under certain circumstances, yes.
I don't know how historical this is outside of proper colonies, but if a subject has low autonomy I think being able to force your religion on your subject could be a neat feature when playing as authoritarian states with state religion.

Regarding independence plays, will it now be possible possible for several subjects to join together in the same play against the overlord?
 
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Great point and actually a not-uncommon piece of feedback. For right now the info is going to remain in nested tooltips, but I'll look into how to better expose it to the player in the future. Very similar situation to how Pop Needs used to be nested in deep tooltips for several major versions after release, now that I think of it. Thank you!

Really glad to hear! I don't expect its position to change on release but I'm glad it's something that'll get exposed better down the line like the Pop Needs were sometimes back. If I can make a suggestion, why not use the new Subject Interface to do it, assuming of course that players that are playing a country that is a subject have access to the same screen with some information arranged differently. Making it a tab that expands to show information at a quick glance through pictures and values for the top goods and total imbalance while giving the option for nested tooltips to get into more nitty gritty would make it much more usable, as example in the attached picture for a rough and dirty mockup.

The dream is, of course, to have it be as expanded as the Pop Needs to not need the tooltip at all but I understand that you have to take space restrictions and layout into consideration and that the economic dependence isn't as high priority or as needed as Pop Needs for its own special tab.

It costs you Influence to maintain these pacts, and their involvement of course means you as the overlord war leader can add war goals on them in the Diplomatic Play, so it's not cheap / risk-free. But I'll consider this point and if there's some other cost or consequence we can / should impose.
So the issue I believe exists here is that, even with Spheres introducing much more important uses for Influence, is that a lot of countries can still easily squeeze in a few hundred points of Influence without regret if it means messing up another country for as long as possible. Influence by itself is not a harsh enough barrier to stop people from abusing the AI (and in MP other people). Forcing them into the war is good, of course, but what's stopping me from instantly bowing out of it once it goes to a war I forced to exist because of my meddling against the AI?

Even against players, the person that got screwed over by someones interference is going to be the one eating the infamy hit for demanding War Goals against the goblin messing up their subjects if I assume correctly, so it's a triple whammy that piles on punishment to the person getting messed with. First they have to contend with a rowdy subject, then they have to eat infamy to punish the person that instigated it or let them get off scot-free, and third they actually have to drag a war out with all the losses that entails both POP wise and economically. A hand-crafted War Goal is no doubt out of the equation for this, but what if you automatically enforced War Reps and Humiliation as primary war goals against anybody supporting the Subject's independence for 0 infamy and 0 manoeuvres cost?

Also on the subject of this bit specifically, I do hope there's been some work done in regards to how Overlords get peaced out of their subjects war due to no goal targeting them. It's a pain-point of having subjects.
 

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This you cannot do, since a country yet to have been released cannot be the target of pacts. Only countries that exist as current subjects can be targeted.
Would be nice if at some point in the (perhaps distant) future, minoritarian politics was represented in some way. Either as political parties who claim to represent the interests of specific minorities (cultural or religious) or with this kind of lobby system. These would represents groups who are not discriminated, but also not the primary religion or culture. Their interests could range from stuff like liberating their fellow people in other countries where they are discriminated, if they are happy, and releasing their homelands in your own country as subjects if they're unhappy. But mainly they would exist to oppose any changes to religion and culture laws that would make them discriminated.
Because with the current system, it often happens that once a pop becomes accepted, they give their clout to various IGs in your country, some of which then go on to demand you repeal the very laws that allowed them to politically participate in the first place. If I am not explaining myself clearly I mean something like this: if your country's primary religion is catholicism and you have a sizeable protestant minority; you go from state religion to freedom of conscience, and the protestants get to politically participate more; the protestant clergymen would ideally be likely to join some kind of Devout IG, but it doesn't make sense for them to join "the" Devout, because in your country they represent the interests of the catholic clergy, who actually want to repress them; however, they do have some common devout interests, including being against seperation of church and state, for which they would pool their clout, but they would have opposite stances on State Religion. And similar things for culture.
Or maybe such systems are already in place and I just don't understand it well enough xD
 
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I wish personal unions would get some love. Like adding an ability to release nation as a personal union and option to convert a subject into personal union.

Personal union subject with parliamentary monarchy and by that limited power of monarch should be able to start their own diplomatic plays like dominion can.

Also if junior partner has low liberty desire and revolution happens in senior partner overthrowing their monarch then it would be nice to have an option through event to keep the same monarch on a throne of now independent country.


When it comes to subjects in general it would be nice if one could push wargoals of their subjects, for example return state.
 
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I like the options to change the status of my subject nations.
Create a colonial administration, see that they behave responsible and upgrade them to be a dominion.
A dominion behaving inacceptable? Maybe a bit more oversight might be a good idea
 
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What happens to your subjects (or power bloc members) should you undergo a regime change.
Assume your tsarist autocratic Russia and have a series of like-minded subjects. You reform to USSR. What happens to your autocratic monarchic subjects? They happily stick with you? Do they quit your power bloc? What about their liberty desire ?

Thank you !
 
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Is NOBODY gonna mention that the Baltic Governates are a thing. This is such a good change; but I wonder what their primary culture would be? Would it be Latvian and Estonian, North German, or Russian?
 
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I like the liberty desire, but how do we know which decisions our AI overlord will actually want to enact? Will it always try to minimize autonomy/annex us when possible? Is it depending on AI attitude and if so, we have more stances than protective and domineering? just curious about the actual gameplay implications of the changes and how our relations are involved with this.
 
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Really cool, but could be cooler if the AI wouldn't be useless/ outright sabotaging you in a war.
Therefore I have a proposition: Create a decision to take controll of subject AI's armies!

+ Add military access requests and persmissions not only to subjects but in general.
 
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Are subjects now able to support each other's independence via subject alliances? Previously you could have tens of puppets, all hating you, but they were able only to declare independence on their own, automatically calling all the other, equally angry, puppets on the side of the overlord. EU4 style liberty desire from other subjects and alliances between disloyal ones would help a lot.

For economic dependence I think relying on arms industries of another nation should be a massive factor. Also looking at the screen I have two complaints:
  • It's weird that "their market is larger" is a factor. Like the size difference plays into satisfied/unsatisfied needs, and there's not really a need to have it as a separate factor. It would be weird to see things like a country basically doing no trading with someone, but being considered reliant on their economy due to size difference.
  • The first information I want looking at "domestically unsatisfied demands" is "then how much of it do I satisfy?" I can scroll through goods or try to contextualize it with the absolute values, but I really wish there was some percentage there. Just so I can see "GB satisfied £700 of fruit, which is 15% of our total demand. We satisfy 75% of it ourselves!".
 
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View attachment 1110749
Is NOBODY gonna mention that the Baltic Governates are a thing. This is such a good change; but I wonder what their primary culture would be? Would it be Latvian and Estonian, North German, or Russian?
We have known that for a few weeks
 
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Would be nice if at some point in the (perhaps distant) future, minoritarian politics was represented in some way. Either as political parties who claim to represent the interests of specific minorities (cultural or religious) or with this kind of lobby system. These would represents groups who are not discriminated, but also not the primary religion or culture. Their interests could range from stuff like liberating their fellow people in other countries where they are discriminated, if they are happy, and releasing their homelands in your own country as subjects if they're unhappy. But mainly they would exist to oppose any changes to religion and culture laws that would make them discriminated.
Because with the current system, it often happens that once a pop becomes accepted, they give their clout to various IGs in your country, some of which then go on to demand you repeal the very laws that allowed them to politically participate in the first place. If I am not explaining myself clearly I mean something like this: if your country's primary religion is catholicism and you have a sizeable protestant minority; you go from state religion to freedom of conscience, and the protestants get to politically participate more; the protestant clergymen would ideally be likely to join some kind of Devout IG, but it doesn't make sense for them to join "the" Devout, because in your country they represent the interests of the catholic clergy, who actually want to repress them; however, they do have some common devout interests, including being against seperation of church and state, for which they would pool their clout, but they would have opposite stances on State Religion. And similar things for culture.
Or maybe such systems are already in place and I just don't understand it well enough xD
It definitely feels like this is going to be the next big push, focusing on minority groups. There are bunch of changes in this one like evangelize and a religious map when religion has next to no impact yet in the game, but it has been made clear they would like it to. I would bet that will help serve as the groundwork for making a religious and culture push in the next big patch.
 
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One issue I have is that if I'm a large nation and I adopt a council republic and cooperative economy, I can't impose that on subjects or even reliably do so with regime change. If I start a law change for it, it always fails or stalls. This doesn't make a ton of sense, and I can't even start a diplomatic play on the subject to do it. Is that going to be fixed? Those major ideological shifts are a big part of this time period.
 
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