• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #115 - Graveyard of Empires

16_9.png

Hello. This is Victoria, and today I will be covering the remainder of the Great Game-themed narrative content which is coming in Sphere of Influence and its accompanying update.

To avoid any confusion, I would like to clarify that none of the narrative content shown in this diary, nor the last diary, is gated behind the Great Game objective. The Great Game objective provides objective subgoals which grant points for certain journal entries and a score tracker which interfaces with much of this content for a more focused experience–it is not required to experience this content. All content within this diary, unless specified otherwise, is available both in sandbox mode or during the course of any objective.

Afghanistan

Afghanistan in 1836 is far from a united land. The slow collapse of the Durrani Empire has left it in a state of civil war for decades, with the primary claimants to the throne forming fiefdoms centred in Herat, Kabul, and Kandahar. In addition to this unfortunate internal situation, the Afghan states find themselves menaced by Persia’s expansionist ambitions from the West, the encroaching British East India Company from the East, and Russian influence from the North.

DD115_01.png

All Afghan states start with the Afghan Reunification Journal Entry active. Whilst the primary contenders for reunifying Afghanistan are Herat, Kandahar, and Kabul, the minor khanates of Maimana and Kunduz also have this available, allowing for the formation of an Afghanistan under an Uzbek Khan.

DD115_02.png

This journal entry allows all Afghan contenders to appeal to either Russia or Britain for military and diplomatic support in reunifying Afghanistan. If the relevant Great Power approves the contender’s request, they will be more inclined to support said contenders in diplomatic plays, and the contender will receive military bonuses in return for an obligation.

DD115_03.png

Once unified, a freshly formed Afghanistan may choose to either pursue additional claims on Pashtun and Tajik homelands, at the cost of infamy, or stop its expansion whilst it’s ahead.

DD115_04.png

Afghanistan’s unification content will be available to all players in the free update accompanying the release of Sphere of Influence.

Persia

Persia in 1836 is a country swelling with expansionist ambitions. The newly enthroned Mohammad Shah has consolidated his power, and wishes to annex the Principality of Herat as part of a grand ambition that would unify the Persian-speaking populace of Afghanistan with Persia and extend Persian influence throughout Central Asia.

DD115_05.png

In Sphere of Influence, these expansionist ambitions are represented through the Eastern Frontier Journal Entry. This journal entry provides the tools needed to realise Persia’s expansionist interests, with buttons for approaching either Russia or Britain, as well as gaining claims on the remainder of Central Asia under certain conditions..

DD115_06.png

If Persia occupies Herat, Britain will be warned, and will have the opportunity to demand that Persia withdraw from the region. If Britain sends the demand and Persia chooses to back down, this will represent a major humiliation setback in its expansionist ambitions. If Persia refuses to back down, Britain will become much more hostile towards Persia, and represent a major impediment to its future efforts.

DD115_07.png

DD115_08.png

While expanding North and East, Persia will encounter the massive slave markets of Turkmenia and Uzbekistan, and be faced with the need to either free the slaves or allow them to remain in captivity.

DD115_09.png

Additionally, Persia will have the opportunity to restore the great city of Merv, formerly one of the largest cities in the world before its desolation by Tolui Khan.

DD115_10.png

If Persia is successfully able to complete this Journal Entry, it is almost certain to become a major power in its own right–one that may be able to become recognised, expel both Russia and Britain from Central Asia, and force an end to the Great Game.

DD115_11.png

The above content for Persia is available for all owners of the Sphere of Influence expansion pack.

Korea

Korea, despite being far from Central Asia, was not untouched by the Great Game. In the mid-to-late nineteenth century, it began feeling the effects of European influence, causing unrest among the intellectual class and the peasantry. The philosophy of Donghak, or Eastern Learning, was intended to present a path to establishing a democratic and egalitarian society in Korea whilst simultaneously refusing encroachment by foreign powers.

DD115_12.png

To represent Korea’s isolation from the world during this period of the Joseon Dynasty, Korea has been given the Isolationism law at game start. Once this law is replaced by a different trade law, a sufficient degree of turmoil builds up, and the effects of foreign influence begin to be felt in Korea, a new journal entry will appear. The Donghak Movement journal entry represents the hybrid religious-political peasant movements that occurred in Korea around the late 19th century. Whilst it is active, revolutions involving the Rural Folk will be greatly strengthened.

DD115_13.png

DD115_14.png

There are two paths to removing the threat of a peasant rebellion–reducing the amount of radicals in Korea to a manageable level, or completing the demands that the movement offers the government. Whilst the Donghak movement is active, they may issue a petition to the government, demanding that Korea go back into isolation, permit religious tolerance, and reduce the power of the Yangban. Accepting the petition will please the Rural Folk and decrease the threat of imminent revolution, but failing to meet its demands within the time allotted will make the situation endlessly worse.

DD115_15.png

DD115_16.png

If a movement involving the Rural Folk becomes revolutionary, the Journal Entry will fail, and massively escalate both the radicalism of the movement and the progress of the revolution. What would formerly have been mere civil unrest will transform into a near-guaranteed civil war–one which could run the risk of a foreign intervention which would be disastrous for Korea.

DD115_17.png

If Korea has a civil war whilst a subject of China, China will be inclined to come to the defence of its loyal government–but a modernised Japan may also be inclined to intervene, and be much less predictable in its allegiance.

DD115_18.png

As a bonus, Korea has also had several events pertaining to the Joseon monarchy added, allowing for the appearance of characters such as Gojong and the Empress Myeongseong.

DD115_19.png

This content for Korea is available for all players who own the Sphere of Influence expansion pack.

The Caucasus

In Sphere of Influence, both of Russia’s opponents in the Caucasian War–Circassia and the Caucasian Imamate–receive journal entries to represent their role in the conflict. In the case of Circassia, this journal entry is completed by expelling the Russians from Kuban and achieving the borders claimed by the Circassian parliament.

DD115_20.png

Upon either the expiration of the truce between Circassia and Russia–or Russia’s escalation of the war using its Caucasian War journal entry–Circassia receives an event representing the historical Parliament of Independence in 1861. This event offers the opportunity to either focus on modernising the military in preparation for a Russian invasion, or appealing to foreign powers for recognition and support.

DD115_21.png

Foreign powers with an interest in the Caucasus region will receive the option to offer recognition to Circassia upon the conclusion of its war with Russia, as well as becoming more inclined to support it in a defensive war.

DD115_22.png

The Caucasian Imamate has also received a journal entry covering its struggle for independence. Its attached modifier grants the Imamate benefits in terms of morale and defence on states it owns.

DD115_23.png

Once Circassia’s starting leaders have died, the Imamate may use this journal entry to dispatch a leader to Circassia, fostering a formal alliance between both states.

DD115_24.png

If the Imamate and Circassia reverse the course of their wars and expel Russian influence from the North Caucasus, the Russian government will no longer have the ability to exert influence within the region. It will be forced to either try to maintain its administration through a storm of radicalism, or pull out from the region. Depending on the social technologies that Russia has unlocked, the collapse of the Caucasus may take the form of the restoration of some of its traditional kingdoms, the appearance of modern nation-states, or the establishment of a unified Transcaucasia.

Pictured: The third option is unlocked by the Nationalism technology, and the fourth by Pan-Nationalism.
DD115_25.png


Pictured: The result of the first option.

DD115_26.png

Content for the Caucasian Imamate and Circassia is available to those who own the Sphere of Influence expansion pack.

Earning Recognition

The “Earning Recognition” Journal Entry permits an unrecognised major power to work towards the status of recognised nation. This journal entry replaces the currently existing Force Recognition wargoal–whilst defeating the Great Powers in wars still benefits an unrecognised nation immensely, it is not a one-and-done path to being regarded as an equal.

DD115_27.png

Conditions which benefit the cause of recognition include defeating Great or Major powers in wars, having high vital statistics such as GDP per capita, standard of living, and literacy, enacting voting rights, and using the new Request Embassy diplomatic action on Great Powers.

DD115_28.png

The Request Embassy Diplomatic Action is unique to this journal entry, and permits for requesting embassies in Great Powers. Each Great Power that is willing to accept an embassy will raise the progress towards Recognised status by 10%.

DD115_29.png

Conditions which harm the cause of recognition include having poor vital economic indicators, being defeated in a war, and having certain regressive laws that demonstrate one’s nation to be an unreliable business partner.

DD115_30.png

Earning Recognition will be available to all players as a part of the free update 1.7.

And that is all. Thank you for reading. Next week, Max will cover the new art of Sphere of Influence.
 
  • 130Like
  • 52Love
  • 10
  • 10
  • 3
Reactions:
idk I expected Persia's affairs to be like "breaking the Oghuz yoke, re-Persianize vs. assert Turkmen dominance over Iranians, at least some sort of status-quo" and it does not look anything like that. Why would the Qajar shah obsess over retaking classical period Persian land, and only that?

EDIT: Does this mean there is nothing much for the rest of Central Asians except for maybe Mongol alt history stuff (i think it was mentioned sometime)?
 
  • 8Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Outlawed dissent is a modern law, surely censorship should be the outdated law that stops you being recognised?
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
We have a task on our plate to re-evaluate and find another fitting country for the tutorial.
Do you have any good suggestions? :D
Maybe Siam? It could be a good way for new players to learn how to survive as an Unrecognized state without having to deal with a ton of special rules or worry about being jumped by colonizers too early.
 
  • 6Like
Reactions:
Because it is not a common thing in this era and the aforementioned criteria would make it way too common.
You claim, with zero evidence.
 
  • 5
Reactions:
We have a task on our plate to re-evaluate and find another fitting country for the tutorial.
Do you have any good suggestions? :D
I've always found Spain to be a good starter country for Victoria games.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
> the contender will receive military bonuses in return for an obligation
Oh god, this is bad.
The mechanics for army modernization (as part of westernisation) and limited foreign military assistance are sorely needed, but making those Afghanistan-specific is ridiculous.

Same can be said about Korean stuff. Of course, the free flow of trade affected the flow of ideas which disrupted the stability of inward-focused nations, but this is not something uniquely Korean and shouldn't only affect one country (generally, nothing ever should only work for just one country).

Thank god at least new recognition mechanics are universal.
I'm hoping that it's a part of an incremental process. Building a mechanic for one nation, and then abstracting it to others seems reasonable.

But yeah, there's currently no reason to think that, and most likely we will eventually see each country get a set of specific gimmicks.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
Hello
First of all, as an Iranian (Persian) I appreciate the work you put in so far in Persia Region
Secondly, there are some changes to Persia that make it more realistic that I made a private mod for myself but from all of the changes I made in my mod, there are 2 Important changes that are not that hard to put in-game :
1. Iranians (Persian) are culturally closer to Pakistani Afghan Tajik than Arabs so what I do is simply change the Middle Eastern heritage tag to Central Asian heritage (the correct change would be to add an Iranian heritage to the game that would include Baluch Pashtun Hazara Afghan Tajik Turkman Uzbek and even Kashmiri (Kashmir unofficial name is little Persia) to it and also have the central Asian heritage that includes Mongols Kazakh Kirghiz Tajik Uzbek Turkman Pashtun)
2. Iran has always been Iran and Persia is the Western name of Iran so the change would be after recognition Persia becomes Iran also some provinces are named according to how Arabs had called them in the previous century, for example, Irak-e-Ajami is an insult to Iranians (Ajam was used by Arabs to say that Arabs are better than Iranians which meant "Mute") so the correct name would be Ray or Tehran and also you changed Khuzestan to Arabistan which is again a name that Arabs used to say that they have somehow a claim on that region the correct name would be Khuzestan

Some other changes that might take a little bit more effort would be the inclusion of some historical characters like Mirza Taqi Khan, known as Amir Kabir (prime minister under Nasir al-Din Shah, r.1848–96), who embarks on a state-sponsored program of military, financial, and educational reform, most importantly the establishment of Iran’s first modern institution of higher learning (not religious schools), the Dar al-Funun, in 1851
 
  • 12
  • 4Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Are there any plans to release a beta version?

I think it would be difficult to include the contents of Sphere of Influence, so I would like the contents of the version 1.7 update to be released as a beta.
This should greatly improve bugs and game balancing issues.
I think that bugs may occur in the contents of SoI, so pure 1.7 would be kinda fine, let alone that they get nearly 2 more months to debug.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
2. Iran has always been Iran and Persia is the Western name of Iran so the change would be after recognition Persia becomes Iran also some provinces are named according to how Arabs had called them in the previous century, for example, Irak-e-Ajami is an insult to Iranians (Ajam was used by Arabs to say that Arabs are better than Iranians which meant "Mute") so the correct name would be Ray or Tehran and also you changed Khuzestan to Arabistan which is again a name that Arabs used to say that they have somehow a claim on that region the correct name would be Khuzestan.
It’s more about how to call it in English world. A post in this thread said that “Iran” might be its name after it being recognized, which I think it’s cool.

I have played as Iran a lot in EU4 these days. I choose to switch the country name to Iran every time.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Emphasis on the never. So I'd eventually like them to revisit that.
And revisit in base game - so it would be maintained as a general mechanic - which it deserves due to Japan’s status in the reorganization of East Asian order.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
We have a task on our plate to re-evaluate and find another fitting country for the tutorial.
Do you have any good suggestions? :D

I'm not the guy, but if you were looking to continue the theme of having a "harder" tutorial nation in the Unrecognized category, Siam and Nejd seem like the obvious contenders. Between the two, I'd actually lean Nejd- while Siam is most certainly closer to Persia (with its large variety of resources and relatively weak neighbors), having a more military focused tutorial nation like Nejd, where you really sort of need to expand if you want to get anywhere by the time oil is discovered, could be a nice change up from the otherwise economically focused nations, while also giving you the safety net of being fairly far under the GPs' interests, outside of the Ottomans anyway, for as long as that means something.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Having been for a walk, I'm hopefully a bit clearer about what diplomatic recognition was and how the game should model it.

There are two points weren't clear at the start of this discussion but I think have been helpfully clarified:
  • Diplomatic recognition was no protection against colonialism, since @bigrigg47 showed that Hawai'i was recognized but still got annexed as a colony, and this can be replicated in-game.
  • Diplomatic recognition was not the same as equality, since China, Japan, and Korea were recognized in Unequal Treaties, and the wiki says it's about potential equality.
That second point has implications for the flavour text in the Dev Diary, which says that recognized nations "claim a seat at the table as respected equals". @PDX_Asteraceae, that language of equality seems to be inconsistent with how Recognition has worked in previous patches, with the existence of an in-game hierarchy of Powers from Minor to Great, and from how diplomatic Recognition actually worked. I think it's confusing for players as well as unrealistic, and it should be reconsidered.

And that flavour text has another assumption that is very questionable. It says that "For too long Persia has been denied proper diplomatic recognition..." The Journal Entry, and much of this discussion, are proceeding on the basis that Recognition is something that an Unrecognized player/AI is trying to achieve and is (reluctantly?) conceded by the European Powers. But you all know that in one case it worked the opposite way around: the British demanded the right to establish an Embassy in Peking, and the Qing refused, both in 1793 (the Macartney Embassy) and 1842 (the Opium War). Why? One traditional explanation is to point to the fact that the British demanded recognition as equals and say the Manchus were not willing to grant that, because they considered that the appropriate format for international relations was British submission to the Emperor in the context of a Sinocentric tributary system. These days, many academics question whether an EU4-style "tributary system" is an accurate description of Qing diplomacy (e.g. Professor Henrietta Harrison's article on the Macartney Embassy). But it's canon in the Paradox universe, and for our purpose the point is that the Qing had in mind some different system or other from the Eurocentric, Westphalian system that is assumed in V3.

And I think that's helpful in understanding what diplomatic recognition was. It was a mutual acceptance that the nations were participating in a Eurocentric system of international relations, with certain expectations (e.g. not executing ambassadors, agreeing to trade) set according to European norms. Recognition could be described as a 'game' with 'rules'; you might win (like Japan?) or lose (like Hawai'i), but you were agreeing to play by the 'rules'. I am not saying it was fair, or that European nations stuck to the 'rules', but there was a Westphalian ideal that set some expectations. In the early 19th century, the Qing did not want to play that game. In 1859, they were forced to enter it by gunboat.

So perhaps V2 had it right by describing this process as 'Westernization'. In 1836, not all tags even wanted to enter into the Eurocentric system. If a country does choose to enter it through this Journal Entry, it's not necessarily a demand for equality, but a sign that its elite understand the West well enough to want to play the same 'game' as the most powerful states in the world.

So I think @Froonk is right to argue that measures like GDP per capita or Standard of Living don't really deserve any place in this. Right now, Haiti has the worst Standard of Living in the world by most measures, but it has no problem obtaining diplomatic recognition. Literacy fits better, because you need a certain minimum level of literacy (at least among the elite) to participate in Westphalian diplomacy. The fact that Traditionalism is a bar to Recognitions fits perfectly, because it indicates that the people of the country have rejected Western/modern ways. The Journal Entry could perhaps be improved by also measuring Bureaucracy, since I suspect that is a better way to model why a state like Iran was recognized by European powers while Herat was not. Bureaucracy is a Capacity, and states needed a certain amount of bureaucratic capacity to enter into European-style diplomatic relations. But the Journal Entry really should also somehow incorporate or engage with Ideologies, since I think the desire for, and awarding of, diplomatic recognition were fundamentally about a change in the mindset of the leadership of the country seeking it.
Would the measurement of bureaucracy capacity be done ingame via bureaucracy excess (percentage or direct value) or generation (direct value)? Because then bigger nations like Qing should be in abundance for it. I do agree with Traditionalism being the guarding condition (one of many anyway) to begin the process of Westernization. An interesting approach to this is found via mod Western Clothes Redux where unrecognized nation can gain Westernized clothing via a decision, which requires certain condition (Slavery banned, powerful Intelligensia/Industrialist/PB, weakened traditionalists (LO, Church, RF). Clicking the decision creates a Journal entry similar to "the Great Exhibition" JE. which I think for our recognition JE will only progress if further conditions are met i.e. military capabilities (quantity and quality) or economic size/population size.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Would be nice if one day the game would really make us build embassies, and need to actually spend money to have influence and declare interests.

Ambassadors and diplomats don't work for free, you know.
 
  • 7
  • 1Like
Reactions:
idk I expected Persia's affairs to be like "breaking the Oghuz yoke, re-Persianize vs. assert Turkmen dominance over Iranians, at least some sort of status-quo" and it does not look anything like that. Why would the Qajar shah obsess over retaking classical period Persian land, and only that?

EDIT: Does this mean there is nothing much for the rest of Central Asians except for maybe Mongol alt history stuff (i think it was mentioned sometime)?
Because it's ahistorical?there wasn't any big gaps in identity between the ruling Qajars and the "Persian" majority. The Qajars were first and foremost an Iranian monarchy and would care to at least re-conquer lands that the previous ruling dynasties held.The founder of the dynasty,Agha Mohammad Khan,used Safavid and Afsharid dominance over the Caucasus as a pretext for his invasion of Georgia.He also treated the conquered land as restored territories of the Iranian Shah/state,not Turkmen(which would have been quite meaningless as an ethnic term back then) warriors subjugating Persians.The Qajars did idolize Genghis Khan because of his military accomplishments and their nomadic origins,but this didn't really contradict their "Iranian" identity in their eyes.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
And revisit in base game - so it would be maintained as a general mechanic - which it deserves due to Japan’s status in the reorganization of East Asian order.
That sounds great, but how exactly would we model it so that Japan naturally industrializes and modernizes as a general mechanic, while also making sure that it doesn't extend too far with every other Asian/African nation all industrializing too?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Conditions which harm the cause of recognition include having poor vital economic indicators, being defeated in a war, and having certain regressive laws that demonstrate one’s nation to be an unreliable business partner.​


I have noticed that neither Isolationism nor Closed Borders are considered as harmful for recognition, it would be really weird if I could make Japan recognized while keeping these laws from the start.
In particular Isolationism should be a major setback since you can't be a "business partner", to quote the Dev Diary, if other nations can't trade with you (I would dare saying that "Not Having Isolationism" should be one of the conditions to complete the Journal Entry but it might be too much).​
 
  • 5
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I understand now why this was delayed, this is a massive amount of content to be made, tested and polished!
But the direction of this is superb! so many different corners of the world got more interesting and an overall generic addition to aspire to is also pretty neat. Good solid design here, i like it!
 
  • 1
Reactions: