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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #115 - Graveyard of Empires

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Hello. This is Victoria, and today I will be covering the remainder of the Great Game-themed narrative content which is coming in Sphere of Influence and its accompanying update.

To avoid any confusion, I would like to clarify that none of the narrative content shown in this diary, nor the last diary, is gated behind the Great Game objective. The Great Game objective provides objective subgoals which grant points for certain journal entries and a score tracker which interfaces with much of this content for a more focused experience–it is not required to experience this content. All content within this diary, unless specified otherwise, is available both in sandbox mode or during the course of any objective.

Afghanistan

Afghanistan in 1836 is far from a united land. The slow collapse of the Durrani Empire has left it in a state of civil war for decades, with the primary claimants to the throne forming fiefdoms centred in Herat, Kabul, and Kandahar. In addition to this unfortunate internal situation, the Afghan states find themselves menaced by Persia’s expansionist ambitions from the West, the encroaching British East India Company from the East, and Russian influence from the North.

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All Afghan states start with the Afghan Reunification Journal Entry active. Whilst the primary contenders for reunifying Afghanistan are Herat, Kandahar, and Kabul, the minor khanates of Maimana and Kunduz also have this available, allowing for the formation of an Afghanistan under an Uzbek Khan.

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This journal entry allows all Afghan contenders to appeal to either Russia or Britain for military and diplomatic support in reunifying Afghanistan. If the relevant Great Power approves the contender’s request, they will be more inclined to support said contenders in diplomatic plays, and the contender will receive military bonuses in return for an obligation.

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Once unified, a freshly formed Afghanistan may choose to either pursue additional claims on Pashtun and Tajik homelands, at the cost of infamy, or stop its expansion whilst it’s ahead.

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Afghanistan’s unification content will be available to all players in the free update accompanying the release of Sphere of Influence.

Persia

Persia in 1836 is a country swelling with expansionist ambitions. The newly enthroned Mohammad Shah has consolidated his power, and wishes to annex the Principality of Herat as part of a grand ambition that would unify the Persian-speaking populace of Afghanistan with Persia and extend Persian influence throughout Central Asia.

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In Sphere of Influence, these expansionist ambitions are represented through the Eastern Frontier Journal Entry. This journal entry provides the tools needed to realise Persia’s expansionist interests, with buttons for approaching either Russia or Britain, as well as gaining claims on the remainder of Central Asia under certain conditions..

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If Persia occupies Herat, Britain will be warned, and will have the opportunity to demand that Persia withdraw from the region. If Britain sends the demand and Persia chooses to back down, this will represent a major humiliation setback in its expansionist ambitions. If Persia refuses to back down, Britain will become much more hostile towards Persia, and represent a major impediment to its future efforts.

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While expanding North and East, Persia will encounter the massive slave markets of Turkmenia and Uzbekistan, and be faced with the need to either free the slaves or allow them to remain in captivity.

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Additionally, Persia will have the opportunity to restore the great city of Merv, formerly one of the largest cities in the world before its desolation by Tolui Khan.

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If Persia is successfully able to complete this Journal Entry, it is almost certain to become a major power in its own right–one that may be able to become recognised, expel both Russia and Britain from Central Asia, and force an end to the Great Game.

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The above content for Persia is available for all owners of the Sphere of Influence expansion pack.

Korea

Korea, despite being far from Central Asia, was not untouched by the Great Game. In the mid-to-late nineteenth century, it began feeling the effects of European influence, causing unrest among the intellectual class and the peasantry. The philosophy of Donghak, or Eastern Learning, was intended to present a path to establishing a democratic and egalitarian society in Korea whilst simultaneously refusing encroachment by foreign powers.

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To represent Korea’s isolation from the world during this period of the Joseon Dynasty, Korea has been given the Isolationism law at game start. Once this law is replaced by a different trade law, a sufficient degree of turmoil builds up, and the effects of foreign influence begin to be felt in Korea, a new journal entry will appear. The Donghak Movement journal entry represents the hybrid religious-political peasant movements that occurred in Korea around the late 19th century. Whilst it is active, revolutions involving the Rural Folk will be greatly strengthened.

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There are two paths to removing the threat of a peasant rebellion–reducing the amount of radicals in Korea to a manageable level, or completing the demands that the movement offers the government. Whilst the Donghak movement is active, they may issue a petition to the government, demanding that Korea go back into isolation, permit religious tolerance, and reduce the power of the Yangban. Accepting the petition will please the Rural Folk and decrease the threat of imminent revolution, but failing to meet its demands within the time allotted will make the situation endlessly worse.

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If a movement involving the Rural Folk becomes revolutionary, the Journal Entry will fail, and massively escalate both the radicalism of the movement and the progress of the revolution. What would formerly have been mere civil unrest will transform into a near-guaranteed civil war–one which could run the risk of a foreign intervention which would be disastrous for Korea.

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If Korea has a civil war whilst a subject of China, China will be inclined to come to the defence of its loyal government–but a modernised Japan may also be inclined to intervene, and be much less predictable in its allegiance.

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As a bonus, Korea has also had several events pertaining to the Joseon monarchy added, allowing for the appearance of characters such as Gojong and the Empress Myeongseong.

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This content for Korea is available for all players who own the Sphere of Influence expansion pack.

The Caucasus

In Sphere of Influence, both of Russia’s opponents in the Caucasian War–Circassia and the Caucasian Imamate–receive journal entries to represent their role in the conflict. In the case of Circassia, this journal entry is completed by expelling the Russians from Kuban and achieving the borders claimed by the Circassian parliament.

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Upon either the expiration of the truce between Circassia and Russia–or Russia’s escalation of the war using its Caucasian War journal entry–Circassia receives an event representing the historical Parliament of Independence in 1861. This event offers the opportunity to either focus on modernising the military in preparation for a Russian invasion, or appealing to foreign powers for recognition and support.

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Foreign powers with an interest in the Caucasus region will receive the option to offer recognition to Circassia upon the conclusion of its war with Russia, as well as becoming more inclined to support it in a defensive war.

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The Caucasian Imamate has also received a journal entry covering its struggle for independence. Its attached modifier grants the Imamate benefits in terms of morale and defence on states it owns.

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Once Circassia’s starting leaders have died, the Imamate may use this journal entry to dispatch a leader to Circassia, fostering a formal alliance between both states.

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If the Imamate and Circassia reverse the course of their wars and expel Russian influence from the North Caucasus, the Russian government will no longer have the ability to exert influence within the region. It will be forced to either try to maintain its administration through a storm of radicalism, or pull out from the region. Depending on the social technologies that Russia has unlocked, the collapse of the Caucasus may take the form of the restoration of some of its traditional kingdoms, the appearance of modern nation-states, or the establishment of a unified Transcaucasia.

Pictured: The third option is unlocked by the Nationalism technology, and the fourth by Pan-Nationalism.
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Pictured: The result of the first option.

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Content for the Caucasian Imamate and Circassia is available to those who own the Sphere of Influence expansion pack.

Earning Recognition

The “Earning Recognition” Journal Entry permits an unrecognised major power to work towards the status of recognised nation. This journal entry replaces the currently existing Force Recognition wargoal–whilst defeating the Great Powers in wars still benefits an unrecognised nation immensely, it is not a one-and-done path to being regarded as an equal.

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Conditions which benefit the cause of recognition include defeating Great or Major powers in wars, having high vital statistics such as GDP per capita, standard of living, and literacy, enacting voting rights, and using the new Request Embassy diplomatic action on Great Powers.

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The Request Embassy Diplomatic Action is unique to this journal entry, and permits for requesting embassies in Great Powers. Each Great Power that is willing to accept an embassy will raise the progress towards Recognised status by 10%.

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Conditions which harm the cause of recognition include having poor vital economic indicators, being defeated in a war, and having certain regressive laws that demonstrate one’s nation to be an unreliable business partner.

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Earning Recognition will be available to all players as a part of the free update 1.7.

And that is all. Thank you for reading. Next week, Max will cover the new art of Sphere of Influence.
 
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Can other countries take the role of England if, for example, another country takes over the East India Company or the region?
The previous DD said no.
 
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Alternatively, maybe a protectorate would be a good option to learn other new dynamics introduced in 1.7? Cape Colony could work well in that case.
Korea then. They got a series of feature contents and won’t directly suffer from the pressure from major powers like its two neighbors.

I have not played as Korea in Vicky 3 yet. I think 1.7 is a good time helping me get to know about it.

It would be cool to have feature contents that helps Korea turning from a Chinese protectorate to a Japanese protectorate - it definitely needs some big feature structure focusing on east Asia.
 
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unrecognized states which could be forced into subservience should not be able to become recognized without making the coercion untenable.
Ok, this makes a lot more sense as to the core of our disagreement, but ... why should that be the case?

If a state has become economically prosperous, has the liberal trappings of a "modern" (Western European) state, and has Great Powers making bilateral treaties with it and treating it as a nominal equal in foreign policy, then why wouldn't it take extra infamy to conquer it (especially in comparison to polities that Europeans considered little better than disorganized heathen tribes)? Why should it take "making coercion untenable" for them to be treated as states with rights to sovereignity when they are already being treated as real states by Great Powers?

If you want an example of this happening in real life, I would point to Hawaii (who I would say effectively became recognized by the late 1800s). The coup in 1893 generated significant infamy, meriting President Cleveland ordering an investigation and even mentioning it in a State of the Union.
 
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Ok, this makes a lot more sense as to the core of our disagreement, but ... why should that be the case?
We are talking about how to achieve this goal via general mechanics — but considering the speed of the growth of featured contents in Vicky3, kinda most of unrecognized nations might find its way to be recognized via JEs, etc.

So the general mechanics are probably prepared for those tags that lacks JEs probably xD
 
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Earning recognition as a global mechanic : good.

Journal entries / mission trees / focuses : bad.

At least there are the other content SoI promises.
While I agree with you that systemic changes are better than Journal Entries (and I’m a lot more excited for the new ownership and diplomatic mechanics), I don’t think the Journal Entries detract from the game. They only add to the game, and are definitely a lot easier to develop than entire new systems. In my eyes, as long as we are still getting systemic changes, none of the Journal Entry additions are bad.

I do think that, over time, most gameplay differences between countries should be able to be simulated by the systems. But I don’t mind that taking time. The game is still fun in the meantime.
 
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Ok, this makes a lot more sense as to the core of our disagreement, but ... why should that be the case?

If a state has become economically prosperous, has the liberal trappings of a "modern" (Western European) state, and has Great Powers making bilateral treaties with it and treating it as a nominal equal in foreign policy, then why wouldn't it take extra infamy to conquer it (especially in comparison to polities that Europeans considered little better than disorganized heathen tribes)? Why should it take "making coercion untenable" for them to be treated as states with rights to sovereignity when they are already being treated as real states by Great Powers?

If you want an example of this happening in real life, I would point to Hawaii (who I would say effectively became recognized by the late 1800s). The coup in 1893 generated significant infamy, meriting President Cleveland ordering an investigation and even mentioning it in a State of the Union.

Because it is not a common thing in this era and the aforementioned criteria would make it way too common. Moreover it would exacerbate the issue regarding colonization where colonization costs way too much infamy, colonization should be difficult because great powers are competing for same territory not because they are getting outraged at each other colonizing Africa and Asia.

There is going to be certain disagreement over what exactly is recognition but that's to be expected since it was vague in real life too but you can see that it was way easier to justify colonization in Africa and Asia without much ideological opposition. Considering in-game recognition most importantly affects economy and infamy I believe feasible colonization is the most solid representation.

I believe together with major power requirement, shifting around some of the criteria to be more about hard power with advanced laws as supporting element is palatable, just not things like SoL and literacy since in cases where protectorates or unequal treaties were present they only ceased to be when it became untenable and sparked no outrage and only disagreement within the concert of Europe.

It also gives off the false idea that imperialist powers were considering a honest criteria regarding wellbeing of a nation's citizens when they were colonizing it rather than merely using a nebulous idea of preconceived levels of civilization which were based on pseudoscience and economic dominance. This is a general issue with Paradox games where in attempt to avoid giving outlet to worst offenses and atrocities of history they can end up sanitizing and even white washing history. This is however not unique to Paradox and I see it being more and more prevalent in media in general but that likely extends past the scope of this discussion.
 
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I think it makes some sense, extremely poor tribals/peasants/general poor in Africa/Asia are easier to overlook than extremely literate, organized and nationalistic workers and elite of a more prosperous nation, even accounting for racism and the like. If the nation is rich, well armed and prideful, their more likely to be treated differently even if not equally than some basketcase of a "country" that isn't any of those.
 
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Having been for a walk, I'm hopefully a bit clearer about what diplomatic recognition was and how the game should model it.

There are two points weren't clear at the start of this discussion but I think have been helpfully clarified:
  • Diplomatic recognition was no protection against colonialism, since @bigrigg47 showed that Hawai'i was recognized but still got annexed as a colony, and this can be replicated in-game.
  • Diplomatic recognition was not the same as equality, since China, Japan, and Korea were recognized in Unequal Treaties, and the wiki says it's about potential equality.
That second point has implications for the flavour text in the Dev Diary, which says that recognized nations "claim a seat at the table as respected equals". @PDX_Asteraceae, that language of equality seems to be inconsistent with how Recognition has worked in previous patches, with the existence of an in-game hierarchy of Powers from Minor to Great, and from how diplomatic Recognition actually worked. I think it's confusing for players as well as unrealistic, and it should be reconsidered.

And that flavour text has another assumption that is very questionable. It says that "For too long Persia has been denied proper diplomatic recognition..." The Journal Entry, and much of this discussion, are proceeding on the basis that Recognition is something that an Unrecognized player/AI is trying to achieve and is (reluctantly?) conceded by the European Powers. But you all know that in one case it worked the opposite way around: the British demanded the right to establish an Embassy in Peking, and the Qing refused, both in 1793 (the Macartney Embassy) and 1842 (the Opium War). Why? One traditional explanation is to point to the fact that the British demanded recognition as equals and say the Manchus were not willing to grant that, because they considered that the appropriate format for international relations was British submission to the Emperor in the context of a Sinocentric tributary system. These days, many academics question whether an EU4-style "tributary system" is an accurate description of Qing diplomacy (e.g. Professor Henrietta Harrison's article on the Macartney Embassy). But it's canon in the Paradox universe, and for our purpose the point is that the Qing had in mind some different system or other from the Eurocentric, Westphalian system that is assumed in V3.

And I think that's helpful in understanding what diplomatic recognition was. It was a mutual acceptance that the nations were participating in a Eurocentric system of international relations, with certain expectations (e.g. not executing ambassadors, agreeing to trade) set according to European norms. Recognition could be described as a 'game' with 'rules'; you might win (like Japan?) or lose (like Hawai'i), but you were agreeing to play by the 'rules'. I am not saying it was fair, or that European nations stuck to the 'rules', but there was a Westphalian ideal that set some expectations. In the early 19th century, the Qing did not want to play that game. In 1859, they were forced to enter it by gunboat.

So perhaps V2 had it right by describing this process as 'Westernization'. In 1836, not all tags even wanted to enter into the Eurocentric system. If a country does choose to enter it through this Journal Entry, it's not necessarily a demand for equality, but a sign that its elite understand the West well enough to want to play the same 'game' as the most powerful states in the world.

So I think @Froonk is right to argue that measures like GDP per capita or Standard of Living don't really deserve any place in this. Right now, Haiti has the worst Standard of Living in the world by most measures, but it has no problem obtaining diplomatic recognition. Literacy fits better, because you need a certain minimum level of literacy (at least among the elite) to participate in Westphalian diplomacy. The fact that Traditionalism is a bar to Recognitions fits perfectly, because it indicates that the people of the country have rejected Western/modern ways. The Journal Entry could perhaps be improved by also measuring Bureaucracy, since I suspect that is a better way to model why a state like Iran was recognized by European powers while Herat was not. Bureaucracy is a Capacity, and states needed a certain amount of bureaucratic capacity to enter into European-style diplomatic relations. But the Journal Entry really should also somehow incorporate or engage with Ideologies, since I think the desire for, and awarding of, diplomatic recognition were fundamentally about a change in the mindset of the leadership of the country seeking it.
 
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Are there any plans to release a beta version?

I think it would be difficult to include the contents of Sphere of Influence, so I would like the contents of the version 1.7 update to be released as a beta.
This should greatly improve bugs and game balancing issues.
 
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Are there any plans to release a beta version?

I think it would be difficult to include the contents of Sphere of Influence, so I would like the contents of the version 1.7 update to be released as a beta.
This should greatly improve bugs and game balancing issues.
I think this is a good suggestion, because I agree that it would reduce bugs and game balance issues when the patch went live. But PDS very rarely, if ever, have Open Betas for patches that are accompanied by a DLC. I suspect this is mainly because of the complexity of maintaining an Open Beta build that is completely separate from the DLC assets and script. The Paradox DLC model means that the two are normally intermingled. Perhaps they are worried that if they released an Open Beta with the DLC assets present but disabled, it would be an open invitation to piracy, since the pirates would have a temporary period of exclusivity. If that is a worry, then I think that it's an unnecessary one: it's just so much easier to buy games on Steam that essentially everybody who would ever consider buying it would wait. But I would undrstand if no one wants to be the first to take the risk.
 
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Funny. Bald and Bankrupt comes out with a new video in Tajikistan mentioning the final buffer zone between Russia and the UK at the Wakhan corridor.

Anyway:

Great Dev Diary. I agree with other comments here that I'm afraid the Great Game may be too specific a set of events rather than an organic system that can be universally applied elsewhere, but I still think railroady historical mechanics are important in a game such as this, to follow some of sort of historical path.

I also agree with another comment saying that foreign military support, modernisation of armies would be best served with underlying mechanics, maybe upgraded units,better access to military equipment to supply them, rather than blanket modifiers.

The new Westernisation mechanic is great and just what the doctor ordered.
 
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Any plans for additional Japanese westernization content? Odd that Korea would get content for an event the Japanese historically played a major role in while Japan remains untouched.
 
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I also agree with another comment saying that foreign military support, modernisation of armies would be best served with underlying mechanics, maybe upgraded units,better access to military equipment to supply them, rather than blanket modifiers.
Yeah, right now modernising your army is very easy, if a bit costly - you just need enough weapons and ammunition, which aren't very difficult to get
I suppose that modernizing your army should be more difficult and take more time, maybe even require a journal entry?
At one point Peasant Levies locked you to low-tier units, which I thought was a neat idea, but it has been removed since.

I can see a "Modernize the Army" JE, where you are locked with crappy troop types until you complete it via:
- Get out of Peasant Levies
- Get a source of weapons and ammunitions, with imports, foreign investments into a local arms industry, or just some good old industrialization
- Get enough experience, potentially via foreign advisors like the interaction, or via war/tech?

And as a result, maybe your Armed Forces could get their current traits, while the "pre-modernization" traits would be changed to something else

Idk just spitballing
 
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Any plans for Japanese westernization content? Odd that Korea would get content for an event the Japanese historically played a major role in while Japan remains untouched.
Well Japan already has its own content, the Meiji Restoration and the following content represents that already
 
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Well Japan already has its own content, the Meiji Restoration and the following content represents that already
Fair point. I edited my comment to say "additional content." I think a persistent problem since launch with Japan's content is that it almost never happens under the AI. Emphasis on the never. So I'd eventually like them to revisit that.
 
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Also holy cow do those 3d portraits look terrible.

I'm pretty sure 99% of that impression is simply due to the unnatural quality of the lighting. I once had a look at the character editor, and the models actually look good!

It's only once the lighting is added that they seem weird:

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It looks as if there is a harsh light source aimed at the character's forehead, creating the blown-out part there as well as the shadows at the cheeks - which one might mistake for a five o'clock shadow. It is reminiscent of the lighting used in many Films Noirs (or, if you will, the early days of the pandemic, when everybody started using zoom with only a normal desk lamp aimed at their face).

These contrasty portraits suggest a single light source pointed at the forehead [EDIT: looking again, there's probably one light source at 11 o'clock high and another one at 3-5 o'clock high or so - but the main point still stands], which feels unnatural for the time frame of the game (with the exception of coal miners, maybe!).

Some fill lights, a virtual softbox or maybe moving the virtual light source further away would go a long way in making the portraits more natural.
 
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