• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #128 - Political Movement Rework

16_9.png

Happy Thursday and welcome back to another Victoria 3 development diary. This week I’ll be talking about the Political Movement Rework I mentioned back in Dev Diary #126 and which will be coming to you with update 1.8, slated to release later in the year. Before I start, I want to reiterate that this feature is still very much under active development, and any screenshots or numbers shown are very much not indicative of what will be in the actual release, and the UX in particular will be in a very rough state, so don’t read too much into it!

Right then. As I stated previously, the principal goal of this rework is to change Political Movements from temporary demands into long-term ideological forces that can shape the political landscape of your country. So what does that mean, in practice? Well, one of the most significant differences is that movements are no longer formed around the enactment or preservation of a single law. Instead, there is a wide variety of movement types, each with its own unique agenda and conditions for forming, but which can be broadly broken down into three categories:

Ideological Movements: These are movements that exist to push a particular ideological agenda and try to win support for that agenda among your Pops and Interest Groups. Examples include both more narrowly focused movements such as Abolitionists and Suffragettes, and broader ones such as Communists and National Liberals.

Cultural Movements: These are movements that exist to agitate for the rights and privileges of a particular culture in a country. Their specific agenda will vary based on whether the culture is a primary culture or minority culture, as well as the legal status of that culture in the country. For example, a cultural minority movement of South Italians in North Italy would oppose the enactment of Ethnostate since it would strip them of their rights, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re willing to extend those rights to other, less accepted cultures in the country.

Religious Movements: Similar to the cultural movements, but for religions instead

The Pro-Slavery Movement in the United States is largely composed of Dixie pops and has wide-reaching influence in multiple Interest Groups
DD128_01.png

As before, Movements have Support and Radicalism. Previously, both of these numbers could be a little fuzzy in exactly what they represented, so we have changed them into straight percentages between 0 and 100%, where 50% Support now actually means that about half of your country stands behind the movement.

Support is currently calculated from two parts of roughly equal importance: Popular Support and Military Support. The former is a straightforward calculation of the number of individuals in your country that are part of the movement, so in a country of 1 million people, a movement backed by 100k individuals would have a Popular Support of 10%. Military Support is a little more complex, and is currently calculated by the fraction of Soldier and Officer Political Strength that are part of the movement, representing the fact that officers tend to have a greater sway on military side-taking than mere enlisted men. We are also looking into ways to tie generals directly into movements and have this impact their Military Support. All of this plays an important role if a movement escalates into a Civil War, but more on that later.

So, how do movements gain the support of Pops? Very much like Interest Groups, they now have an attraction weight, which depends completely on the type of nature of the movement. The Abolitionist movement, for instance, might have an outsized attraction on literate pops of certain professions, but also would tend to attract more pops from religions whose scripture and traditions take an anti-slavery stance than from ones which tacitly or overtly approve of it.

This attraction weight competes with the attraction weight of all other movements in your country, as individuals can only be part of a single movement at a time. To ensure that this doesn’t mean you end up with 20 tiny and fragmented movements, we are planning to have a system of ‘initial enthusiasm’, where new movements start with a boost to their attraction which fades over time, and are eventually supplanted entirely by the next shiny new thing. It’s worth noting that we may end up only applying this to Ideological Movements, as it doesn’t necessarily make sense that your Pops would stop caring about their right to worship freely just because the Positivist movement is taking off.

Before we move on, it’s also worth noting that just like with Interest Groups, Pop support for Movements isn’t something that instantly changes overnight: Even if a movement is created with a massive attraction weight, it will take some time for it to pick up supporters from other movements.

The pro-Turkish cultural movement in the Ottoman Empire seeks to ensure that Turks remain at the top of Ottoman society, and has a fairly strong base of support in the military.
DD128_02.png

As mentioned above, movements will champion one or several ideologies, and have a few different ways in which they will push those ideologies. The first and most straightforward one is through direct action. Movements have a level of Radicalism, which will go up or down over time based on how much they perceive the current status quo and government’s actions to match their overarching goals. Depending on their level of Radicalism, Movements will be in one of four ‘levels’ of activity:

Passive: Movements with very low Radicalism are Passive, have no direct effects and will only indirectly influence Interest Groups (more on that below)
Agitating: The next step up from Passive, Agitating movements will influence the enactment chances of laws that they support or oppose
Protesting: Protesting movements have a greater impact on the enactment chances of their supported and opposed laws compared to Agitating movements, but also steadily turn their supporters into Radicals over time
Rioting: The highest level of Radicalism, Rioting movements will rapidly radicalize their supporters and may take their level of activity one step further by igniting a Civil War

What all this means is that Movement Radicalism is no longer purely a negative thing, at least not when a Movement’s goals align with yours - if you work too hard at keeping everyone happy, you may find it difficult to push through any radical changes that aren’t backed by your dominant Interest Groups.

The other, less direct way in which Movements affect country politics is the influence they hold over Interest Groups. An Interest Group is considered to be influenced by a Movement if at least a certain % of the Interest Group’s total political strength are members of that Movement, and an Interest Group can be influenced by multiple movements. The most significant effect of this is how it impacts IG Leader Ideologies.

Previously, when an Interest Group got a new leader, that leader would pick their ideology from a weighted list of all the ideologies in the game (minus ones that were scripted to be unavailable or have a weight of zero for that leader), but this has now been reduced to a much shorter list: Leader ideologies can now only be picked from either a set of basic ideologies inherent to the Interest Group itself, or from one of the movements that is influencing the Interest Group, with Movement ideologies tending to have stronger weights than the basic ones. This also means that the ideology selection can now actually be predicted and displayed, so that you can make an educated guess about the way the political winds are blowing in your IGs.

This effectively means that the influencing movements serve as ‘factions’ inside the Interest Group, competing to install a leader and take control of the IG for as long as that leader remains in power. We are also considering allowing Movements to have more permanent effects on the ideologies of Interest Groups, but this is tricky to pull off in a way that doesn’t end up with an IG changing its core identity every 10 years or so, so I don’t want to promise that it’ll be part of the 1.8 update just yet.

Torn between the Pro and Anti-Slavery movements, the next leader of Evangelicals may come down on either side of the issue - or be a compromise candidate who sidesteps it altogether.
DD128_03.png

The final changes I want to go over in this DD is Agitators, which of course have had to go through some changes to fit into this new system. For the most part, Agitators work exactly as before: They appear and start or join movements, can be exiled and invited, and so on. A relatively minor change is that instead of directly adding Support to a movement, they now increase its Pop Attraction by an amount partially scaling to their Popularity, so having Friedrich Engels penning columns singing the praise of your Socialist movement will attract more Socialists over time.

The more significant change is that we have flipped the script on what an Agitator’s Interest Group membership means for their political leanings. Previously, an Agitator would (much like an IG leader) look to their ideology first and interest group ideologies second when determining which laws they support, meaning that you would sometimes get some pretty strange bedfellows and a bunch of Rural Folk Agitators of varying ideologies trying to implement National Militia all over the place for rather unclear reasons. Instead of anchoring Agitators fully to the ideologies of their IG, we have decided that their own ideology, traits and other such circumstances should be what determines which Movement they want to support.

In other words, Agitators are now much more fixated on specific ideas, and if there isn’t sufficient support for those ideas in your country to get a Movement they would actually care to support going, they may not even be available to invite. On the other hand, we are looking into loosening the rules somewhat around which Agitators you can invite based on discrimination status, but we haven’t fully worked out the details there, so more on that another time.

It would of course not be possible to make all these changes without also making major changes to Civil Wars (particularly Secessions and how they tie into cultural/religious movements), but we’ll cover all of that separately in a later dev diary, along with more detailed information on how Movement Radicalism works.

For now I’ll wish you adieu and encourage you to check in again next week, when Lino will tell you all about discrimination and the ways it’s changing in 1.8. See you then!
 

Attachments

  • 16_9.png
    16_9.png
    3,2 MB · Views: 0
  • 93Like
  • 88Love
  • 5
  • 4
Reactions:
1726768951553.png

I am not too happy with this wording for percentages. It's not clear whether it's 1.5% of total, or 1.5%*3.9% = 0.0585% of total clout. Maybe it could use brackets, or be worded more like the military support tooltip, which sounds more clear.
 
  • 9
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I hugely hope we will see far less cases of journal entries ending in "(Interest group) will always pick (ideology) for their leaders", and gets replaced with maybe a weight, that gets attached to certain ideologies within the percentage chances displayed for the next leader.
 
  • 6Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Bear with me, I am going to throw a wild theory.

In place of this cycling of broken/unfun gameplay mechanics releases which then require fixing and ends up merely being replaced by a mechanic broken in a slightly different way, but maybe, just maybe, the studio should be able to release good and fun gameplay on the first attempt.

How many times this political system will be changed in the course of Vic 3 lifetime ?

This phenomenon is why I have lost all expectation for PDX games and now ignore PDX games. This is anything but a sign of valuable products
 
  • 17
Reactions:
This attraction weight competes with the attraction weight of all other movements in your country, as individuals can only be part of a single movement at a time. To ensure that this doesn’t mean you end up with 20 tiny and fragmented movements, we are planning to have a system of ‘initial enthusiasm’, where new movements start with a boost to their attraction which fades over time, and are eventually supplanted entirely by the next shiny new thing. It’s worth noting that we may end up only applying this to Ideological Movements, as it doesn’t necessarily make sense that your Pops would stop caring about their right to worship freely just because the Positivist movement is taking off.
Does this mean that indivuals can be part of only one Ideological Movement AND one Culturual (AND/OR) Religious Movement or part of one Ideological Movement OR one other Movement. Historically especially countries with greater discriminated minorities had both kind of movements and individual groups were part of both movements. In order to achieve certain political goals, historically conflicting ideological movements have often joined forces to achieve cultural goals, or conversely, cultural or religious minorities have joined forces to achieve an ideological goal. As soon as the first/main goal was achieved, most of the time those joint movements broke apart and the conflicting movements' paths separated again. If individual pops can only be part of ONE Movement, there should be at least such breaking points so that priorities are reset for each pop.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
@Wizzington :
Passive: Movements with very low Radicalism are Passive, have no direct effects and will only indirectly influence Interest Groups (more on that below)
Agitating: The next step up from Passive, Agitating movements will influence the enactment chances of laws that they support or oppose
Protesting: Protesting movements have a greater impact on the enactment chances of their supported and opposed laws compared to Agitating movements, but also steadily turn their supporters into Radicals over time
Rioting: The highest level of Radicalism, Rioting movements will rapidly radicalize their supporters and may take their level of activity one step further by igniting a Civil War
I like the general direction of the changes announced in this Dev Diary, but this paragraph has left me slightly confused about what is planned, and especially how it relates to the rework of civil wars. I think it's a move in the right direction, but I'm not certain.

One of the fundamental findings of political science is that street protests are pretty much the last resort of the powerless and rarely change anything. I can confirm that from my own experience as a member of a political party in a democracy. When the other lot were in power, I protested on the street outside the government HQ, which felt good because you're part of a crowd singing together, but the government's policies changed not one bit. But now my party are in power, I see my legislator voting through our policies. Winning elections works!

So let's bear that in mind and try to understand what the different levels of Radicalism outlined in the DD might have looked like in real life. Let's say you want a more liberal voting system in 19th century Russia and are very unhappy with the present one. If you are an autocratic family like the Romanovs, then you have all the power so you just do it! That's the Passive level (the government is doing what you want anyway), right? But not everyone can be Czar. If you are, say, a group of St Petersburg lawyers, then you might form a political party and maybe you will get into the Duma and pass the law, or maybe you'll be in opposition and you won't. Or maybe you get a series of bureaucratic appointments until you are the Home Minister and can whisper in the Czar's ear. That's the Agitating level.

But what if you are serfs in Siberia? You can't vote, so you have no power, so all you can do is protest outside the local governor's office. That's the Protesting level and in real life it hardly ever works. But in-game, we are told that "Protesting movements have a greater impact on the enactment chances of their supported and opposed laws" (my emphasis). I think this is unrealistic, whether in an autocracy or a democracy. At best you will be ignored and at worst you will be gaoled, beaten or abused. Street protests are the last resort of peaceful politics, not the best strategy for change.

The Rioting level apparently is people on the edge of civil war. I think this is confused. Riots don't start civil wars. Civil war is a strategy that you follow if you have Soldier and Officer Support, but are not in the Government. That would represent some St Petersburg army officers. But when do you see army officers rioting? Rioting is one step below street protests; it's the action taken by people who have completely given up any hope of the system listening and have decided to try to burn it all down and grab what they can. In contrast, army officers do have power, because they have the military power to overthrow the government or threaten to do so. It's a blunt instrument, but it often works.

Here is a table roughly summarizing what I mean, and note that I am talking about real life not in-game:
1726776700014.png


I don't think that civil war is the next step beyond riots; it needs (as the DD rightly hints) Soldier and Officer Support. Riots might reduce Legitimacy (they make the government look incompetent) and that might lead to a new government that changes things, but they shouldn't make it more likely that the current government gets its laws passed. I think the proposed Radicalism levels need a bit of a rethink, unless I have totally misunderstood them.

Is there gonna be a cabinet system like ck3 council? Like monarchy with autocracy apointing cabinet members directly but parliamentary democracy with election you cannot apoint cabinet members for immersion.
I hope we get this as the centrepiece of a patch/DLC cycle in 2025 or 2026. It's the one big thing missing to make the game feel complete now that we have foreign trade investment. It would also solve some of the problems that the dev team are facing as they try to rework Movements and Agitators. If there was a cabinet, you would have a trade-off between picking ministers for their policies, their parties' clout, and their personal abilities. You might want to bring that Agitator for voting reform into government in order to top up your Legitimacy or because her political charm will keep the army onside. Alternatively, you might decide that Karl Marx's policies are so radical that he's never getting into government, no matter how much his rhetoric would boost the government's support.
I wish you would also touch religion as well. I think one of the core phenomena of this era regarding to religion is the secularism. I wish you can divide the pops of one religion depending of their secularism/radical approach to their faith, reworking atheism as well.
This looks incredible, but I am somewhat worried about the idea of movements tapering off over time. Socialism and liberal-nationalism were importtant from near the beginning of the game's timeframe to the end, for example.
I agree that both the issues need to be addressed. In my view, the best way to handle all of these issues would be to integrate Ideologies and Religion. In-game religions should be particular sets of and values; let's call them Worldviews. Buddhism and Catholicism would be Worldviews. But so would Marxism. It has a coherent set of doctrines, various important writings that people study, a revered set of founders, a set of ethics, an organized body where people gather to study Marx's books and plan to persuade other people to adopt the same doctrines, and so on. It claims not be interested in the supernatural, so we won't call it a religion, but it's a Worldview like the others. And (here comes the controversial part) so is Liberalism. So over the course of the late 19th century, we might expect to see people moving from Christian pops to Liberal and Marxist ones in industrialized Europe. But in North America, it might be different, as famous Characters (Agitators?) like Finney and Moody actually increase the size of Christian pops and stem the surge of Liberalism. And the Worldviews might change internally or split during the course of a game (roughly like CK3 Religions and Cultures). Marxism would split off from Socialism, then Leninism might split off from Marxism; Christianity and Liberalism might hybridize into Liberal Christianity, which might swiftly gain Feminist Ideology, or might go in a different direction (Nationalist, perhaps?). New versions of more traditional religions like Mormonism and Caodaism would emerge too. The 19th and early 20th century was full of religious and ideological change and tumult; the game should reflect this.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 2Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Cool. Will this allow us to simulate nationalist movement? I feel like multi ethnic empires like the Ottomans, Austria-Hungary and Russia are way too stable, and they never seem to collapse even if they lost the war (or losing a huge amount of casualties). Nationalism should break empires apart if the government is way too oppressive and authoritarian with no signs of reforming.
Agreed. The Nationalism innovation should be a ticking time bomb for empires.
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Will this be used to simulate things like the republican movements of 1848, the Internationale(s), and the rise of fascism?
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Interesting bunch !
My main worry is about the IGs relevance.
Right now the radicalism flow is the following
IGs are angry -> can join movements and make them more powerful -> very angry IGs can boost civil war

Now that movement radicalism is instead influencing IGs, and seemingly do not rely as much on the IG approval, we'll have :
IGs angry -> just penalties and enjoy i guess

Isn't this a big loophole where you could make the IGs angry as much as you can through laws, lobbies and such, without political consequences ?
A lot of the mechanics in the game turn around IG approval bonus/maluses, i hope they will still be relevant.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
This is something we are still figuring out at this stage, so will have to come back to you on it! I think it would make sense to show the chance for a commander leader and take that into account for the prediction of next leader ideology, for example.
If you do decide to do this I hope, at some point, we'll have some kind of civilian mirror to generals and admirals (cabinets, governorships, legislature heads, especially if the last could be chosen randomly). I appreciate the flexibility the general system gives with choosing between quality and ideology but I do think it's a little weird that a military career is the main way into politics. It could also give more use to characters like Bismarck etc in the administration of the state

Side note can we get more releasables in the stateless and state-controlled parts of Africa or much lower infamy on taking that land? It's fairly annoying to take 50 infamy to stop Congo from being British every single game or to only be able to carve up the continent into independent colonies
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
hmmm, I do wonder what will happen when for example the landowners will have 2 agitators fighting for different things. Hungarian landowner leading a secession movement and an Austrian landowner leading a movement for enaction of EthnoState....?
 
  • 2
Reactions:
The Rioting level apparently is people on the edge of civil war. I think this is confused. Riots don't start civil wars. Civil war is a strategy that you follow if you have Soldier and Officer Support, but are not in the Government. That would represent some St Petersburg army officers. But when do you see army officers rioting? Rioting is one step below street protests; it's the action taken by people who have completely given up any hope of the system listening and have decided to try to burn it all down and grab what they can. In contrast, army officers do have power, because they have the military power to overthrow the government or threaten to do so. It's a blunt instrument, but it often works.

Here is a table roughly summarizing what I mean, and note that I am talking about real life not in-game:
View attachment 1189719
You're comparing a time with vastly more organized, aggressive, and successful mass movements with today and ignoring that this whole system only leads to change as radicalism gets high

As long as radicalism is low the movements will mostly be preservationist or to benefit powerful IGs like Landowners and the Church. If they're loyal and happy you won't necessarily need to make regressive change to please them leading to high levels of conservatism (in the sense of low degree of energy toward changing laws). But when radicalism is high, assuming you're mostly angering the rural and urban poor, movements will push your country to change. The vast majority of law changes you make, if the system is set up properly, will abide by the desires of major IGs like now. But when your country does slide off a cliff it won't be over a single law change for poor laws or something
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
This of course is awesome and here would be my question/observations.

Cultural Movements: How would immigration impact these especially later on? Would the game be able to differentiate between minorities that are indigenous to the core territory and those that are not? i.e would the USA start having German immigrants move in that would demand the USA recognise and accomodate them?

Other point would be how far this can go? Could we in theory have movements like the Irish in the UK who would start off as a movement asking for concessions before eventually demanding full independence? EDIT: Seems to be addressed in the last paragraph, which is great. Also curious whether one day we might get peaceful or middle options to resolve these things, like referenda for particular states.

Religious Movements: Again, without bringing in modern politics but giving it as an example. Would it be possible to have a playthrough as a Shia Islamist Iran trying to spread and influence similar movements across the region, somehow influencing these not just through lobbies but via these religious movements?
Way ahead of myself here, but that would be a guiding idea of how religious play may mix up a game.

so we have changed them into straight percentages between 0 and 100%, where 50% Support now actually means that about half of your country stands behind the movement.
I think this is a good idea, constantly connecting abstract concepts to real world variables.

All in all, great and exciting dev diary.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
This comment is saved for developer responses.
Given the recent political climate in Eastern Europe and the historical implications of the cultural changes, the question has to be posited. Will "Russification" be something players might have to eventually deal with, either now or in a potential future Russia expansion? I'm not asking this in support of it or against it, just asking because this is something that was very much prominent in Russian politics during the timeframe of the game and would be something that could be explored with the new mechanics of the interest groups.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I like the change in the political movement. On the other hand, I like the IG thing less and less. It was not a great design idea. We should focus on political parties (that can support one or more movements). We could have specific movements supported by multiple parties and movements backed by none.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
This effectively means that the influencing movements serve as ‘factions’ inside the Interest Group, competing to install a leader and take control of the IG for as long as that leader remains in power. We are also considering allowing Movements to have more permanent effects on the ideologies of Interest Groups, but this is tricky to pull off in a way that doesn’t end up with an IG changing its core identity every 10 years or so, so I don’t want to promise that it’ll be part of the 1.8 update just yet.

I guess that reworking the "IG leader takes it all" mentality of the Political movements is out of question, then.

I reckon that this is one of the main causes for the political system not feeling organic, since a change in the leader of an IG will drastically and immediately pivot what this IG supports, which can be very frustrating.

The problem lies in the "immediate" nature of such changes. Your market liberal is dead and now a traditionalist leads your landowners? Too bad, no more support for whatever you were doing.

There are simply no lasting effects of a leadership. Leaders are forgotten as soon as they're dead. This couldn't be less realistic.

I think there should be a temporary tenet/modifier representing the legacy and lasting effects of the IG leaders. This tenet/modifier could be fading or accruing "xp", depending on what laws and other achievements you managed to accomplish during the leadership.

An example: You had an abolitionist Landowner and he is dead? There should be some legacy to their leadership, at least for some years. Instead of immediately forgetting any political pressure for banning/reducing slavery, or getting radicalism to re-enact slavery, if you managed to abolish it, you get, at a minimum, a grace period with reduced political strength to slavers; or, at a maximum, a ticking clock to replace the core tenet "slaver" with a "former-slaver", with less significant political impact on the IG.

This second "tier" of tenets could add granularity without leading to situations in which the IG would be constantly (every 10 years or so) be fickly changing their minds on their view of the world.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I guess that reworking the "IG leader takes it all" mentality of the Political movements is out of question, then.

I reckon that this is one of the main causes for the political system not feeling organic, since a change in the leader of an IG will drastically and immediately pivot what this IG supports, which can be very frustrating.

The problem lies in the "immediate" nature of such changes. Your market liberal is dead and now a traditionalist leads your landowners? Too bad, no more support for whatever you were doing.

There are simply no lasting effects of a leadership. Leaders are forgotten as soon as they're dead. This couldn't be less realistic.

I think there should be a temporary tenet/modifier representing the legacy and lasting effects of the IG leaders. This tenet/modifier could be fading or accruing "xp", depending on what laws and other achievements you managed to accomplish during the leadership.

An example: You had an abolitionist Landowner and he is dead? There should be some legacy to their leadership, at least for some years. Instead of immediately forgetting any political pressure for banning/reducing slavery, or getting radicalism to re-enact slavery, if you managed to abolish it, you get, at a minimum, a grace period with reduced political strength to slavers; or, at a maximum, a ticking clock to replace the core tenet "slaver" with a "former-slaver", with less significant political impact on the IG.

This second "tier" of tenets could add granularity without leading to situations in which the IG would be constantly (every 10 years or so) be fickly changing their minds on their view of the world.
I think the overall viability of this new system will depend on one factor: As long as pops that are part of political movements that are opposition to their leader IG’s character ideology don’t lend their clout to causes their movement doesn’t support, then this system will finally fix the problem of character ideologies arbitrary nature. If it doesn’t and political movement support and IG support are totally separate then I am concerned this won’t fix the problem.

To clarify what I mean, say you have political movement for republicanism, and 25% of PB pops join the movement, while the PB leader remains a monarchist. Say you then try to pass presidential republic. If 100% of the PB clout is used to try and stop the law (regardless of PB members support of the political movement) I will consider this a missed opportunity. If however that 25% splits from the PB and only the remaining 75% of clout is used to oppose the law. This will finally solve the issue in my mind.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions: