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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #128 - Political Movement Rework

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Happy Thursday and welcome back to another Victoria 3 development diary. This week I’ll be talking about the Political Movement Rework I mentioned back in Dev Diary #126 and which will be coming to you with update 1.8, slated to release later in the year. Before I start, I want to reiterate that this feature is still very much under active development, and any screenshots or numbers shown are very much not indicative of what will be in the actual release, and the UX in particular will be in a very rough state, so don’t read too much into it!

Right then. As I stated previously, the principal goal of this rework is to change Political Movements from temporary demands into long-term ideological forces that can shape the political landscape of your country. So what does that mean, in practice? Well, one of the most significant differences is that movements are no longer formed around the enactment or preservation of a single law. Instead, there is a wide variety of movement types, each with its own unique agenda and conditions for forming, but which can be broadly broken down into three categories:

Ideological Movements: These are movements that exist to push a particular ideological agenda and try to win support for that agenda among your Pops and Interest Groups. Examples include both more narrowly focused movements such as Abolitionists and Suffragettes, and broader ones such as Communists and National Liberals.

Cultural Movements: These are movements that exist to agitate for the rights and privileges of a particular culture in a country. Their specific agenda will vary based on whether the culture is a primary culture or minority culture, as well as the legal status of that culture in the country. For example, a cultural minority movement of South Italians in North Italy would oppose the enactment of Ethnostate since it would strip them of their rights, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re willing to extend those rights to other, less accepted cultures in the country.

Religious Movements: Similar to the cultural movements, but for religions instead

The Pro-Slavery Movement in the United States is largely composed of Dixie pops and has wide-reaching influence in multiple Interest Groups
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As before, Movements have Support and Radicalism. Previously, both of these numbers could be a little fuzzy in exactly what they represented, so we have changed them into straight percentages between 0 and 100%, where 50% Support now actually means that about half of your country stands behind the movement.

Support is currently calculated from two parts of roughly equal importance: Popular Support and Military Support. The former is a straightforward calculation of the number of individuals in your country that are part of the movement, so in a country of 1 million people, a movement backed by 100k individuals would have a Popular Support of 10%. Military Support is a little more complex, and is currently calculated by the fraction of Soldier and Officer Political Strength that are part of the movement, representing the fact that officers tend to have a greater sway on military side-taking than mere enlisted men. We are also looking into ways to tie generals directly into movements and have this impact their Military Support. All of this plays an important role if a movement escalates into a Civil War, but more on that later.

So, how do movements gain the support of Pops? Very much like Interest Groups, they now have an attraction weight, which depends completely on the type of nature of the movement. The Abolitionist movement, for instance, might have an outsized attraction on literate pops of certain professions, but also would tend to attract more pops from religions whose scripture and traditions take an anti-slavery stance than from ones which tacitly or overtly approve of it.

This attraction weight competes with the attraction weight of all other movements in your country, as individuals can only be part of a single movement at a time. To ensure that this doesn’t mean you end up with 20 tiny and fragmented movements, we are planning to have a system of ‘initial enthusiasm’, where new movements start with a boost to their attraction which fades over time, and are eventually supplanted entirely by the next shiny new thing. It’s worth noting that we may end up only applying this to Ideological Movements, as it doesn’t necessarily make sense that your Pops would stop caring about their right to worship freely just because the Positivist movement is taking off.

Before we move on, it’s also worth noting that just like with Interest Groups, Pop support for Movements isn’t something that instantly changes overnight: Even if a movement is created with a massive attraction weight, it will take some time for it to pick up supporters from other movements.

The pro-Turkish cultural movement in the Ottoman Empire seeks to ensure that Turks remain at the top of Ottoman society, and has a fairly strong base of support in the military.
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As mentioned above, movements will champion one or several ideologies, and have a few different ways in which they will push those ideologies. The first and most straightforward one is through direct action. Movements have a level of Radicalism, which will go up or down over time based on how much they perceive the current status quo and government’s actions to match their overarching goals. Depending on their level of Radicalism, Movements will be in one of four ‘levels’ of activity:

Passive: Movements with very low Radicalism are Passive, have no direct effects and will only indirectly influence Interest Groups (more on that below)
Agitating: The next step up from Passive, Agitating movements will influence the enactment chances of laws that they support or oppose
Protesting: Protesting movements have a greater impact on the enactment chances of their supported and opposed laws compared to Agitating movements, but also steadily turn their supporters into Radicals over time
Rioting: The highest level of Radicalism, Rioting movements will rapidly radicalize their supporters and may take their level of activity one step further by igniting a Civil War

What all this means is that Movement Radicalism is no longer purely a negative thing, at least not when a Movement’s goals align with yours - if you work too hard at keeping everyone happy, you may find it difficult to push through any radical changes that aren’t backed by your dominant Interest Groups.

The other, less direct way in which Movements affect country politics is the influence they hold over Interest Groups. An Interest Group is considered to be influenced by a Movement if at least a certain % of the Interest Group’s total political strength are members of that Movement, and an Interest Group can be influenced by multiple movements. The most significant effect of this is how it impacts IG Leader Ideologies.

Previously, when an Interest Group got a new leader, that leader would pick their ideology from a weighted list of all the ideologies in the game (minus ones that were scripted to be unavailable or have a weight of zero for that leader), but this has now been reduced to a much shorter list: Leader ideologies can now only be picked from either a set of basic ideologies inherent to the Interest Group itself, or from one of the movements that is influencing the Interest Group, with Movement ideologies tending to have stronger weights than the basic ones. This also means that the ideology selection can now actually be predicted and displayed, so that you can make an educated guess about the way the political winds are blowing in your IGs.

This effectively means that the influencing movements serve as ‘factions’ inside the Interest Group, competing to install a leader and take control of the IG for as long as that leader remains in power. We are also considering allowing Movements to have more permanent effects on the ideologies of Interest Groups, but this is tricky to pull off in a way that doesn’t end up with an IG changing its core identity every 10 years or so, so I don’t want to promise that it’ll be part of the 1.8 update just yet.

Torn between the Pro and Anti-Slavery movements, the next leader of Evangelicals may come down on either side of the issue - or be a compromise candidate who sidesteps it altogether.
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The final changes I want to go over in this DD is Agitators, which of course have had to go through some changes to fit into this new system. For the most part, Agitators work exactly as before: They appear and start or join movements, can be exiled and invited, and so on. A relatively minor change is that instead of directly adding Support to a movement, they now increase its Pop Attraction by an amount partially scaling to their Popularity, so having Friedrich Engels penning columns singing the praise of your Socialist movement will attract more Socialists over time.

The more significant change is that we have flipped the script on what an Agitator’s Interest Group membership means for their political leanings. Previously, an Agitator would (much like an IG leader) look to their ideology first and interest group ideologies second when determining which laws they support, meaning that you would sometimes get some pretty strange bedfellows and a bunch of Rural Folk Agitators of varying ideologies trying to implement National Militia all over the place for rather unclear reasons. Instead of anchoring Agitators fully to the ideologies of their IG, we have decided that their own ideology, traits and other such circumstances should be what determines which Movement they want to support.

In other words, Agitators are now much more fixated on specific ideas, and if there isn’t sufficient support for those ideas in your country to get a Movement they would actually care to support going, they may not even be available to invite. On the other hand, we are looking into loosening the rules somewhat around which Agitators you can invite based on discrimination status, but we haven’t fully worked out the details there, so more on that another time.

It would of course not be possible to make all these changes without also making major changes to Civil Wars (particularly Secessions and how they tie into cultural/religious movements), but we’ll cover all of that separately in a later dev diary, along with more detailed information on how Movement Radicalism works.

For now I’ll wish you adieu and encourage you to check in again next week, when Lino will tell you all about discrimination and the ways it’s changing in 1.8. See you then!
 

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Do ya have any plans on using this to implement a temperance movement and real drug/alcohol laws? It'd be fun to have a tool that could potentially remove an obsession that is implemented in a more "natural" way than is represented now, and maybe having obsessions crop up when players start trying to flood their market with drugs and maybe see some drawbacks to just letting our soldiers smoke opium. I also keep forgetting to click that stupid "remove ban" button when I play Qing, but I assure you that only like, 95% of my interest in a temperance movement is driven by that.
 
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As someone who has suggested this exact thing, I like the general idea of your post, but there are some specifics I have to contest.

I wouldn't be so hasty in considering certain aspects "Core", as many ideologies are replaced or changed already. The elephant in the room is Pious. It's already replaced by Corporatist once you research it.
Ideally, it would be that IG ideologies will bend, but not break. You won't ever get the Devout to support Total Separation over State Religion, but you might get them to support Public Health Insurance over Charity Hospitals.

The general idea is that we can create a system that replicates what some nations already get through guided Journal events.
Brazil, for example, gets no less than three unique events that change Ideology: Giving RF Pro-Slavery, making the PB Modernizer, and making the Landowners Oligarchic.
I think events like that should be more common and more universal as in general as well, I'm thinking of how the PB support monarchism in America( or most of the new world excluding brazil) while in real life that would have been a very fringe position, which would also fit with how they can go radical with the right leaders already, which I feel should be more reflected in their baseline traits, even it's a later replacement of the reactionary trait. I also think that the PB could get a "guild socialist" trait that supports council republics, but still makes them opposed to certain laws you might want such as cultural equality in council republics given that they remain relevant as a council republic, but that's extra to fixing them so that Lincoln(if PB instead of Intelligentsia) and Sherman aren't all isn't in favor of turning America into a monarchy.
 
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Another hope of mine is that secessions will now have a clearer political and ideological perspective. That it's not just a "we want to take these states and naff off" but also, that the laws of the resulting country are important. Especially determining whether a secession in a kingdom should also spawn a kingdom or a republic. Based on what IGs/pops support the movement it should probably nudge the laws of the resulting country.
 
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Really hope some kind of serious military rework is at least planned for the future, haven't heard a peep about it other than naval in these dev diaries.
out of pure curiosity....
What would you say this military rework should focus on and change?
 
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We are also considering allowing Movements to have more permanent effects on the ideologies of Interest Groups, but this is tricky to pull off in a way that doesn’t end up with an IG changing its core identity every 10 years or so, so I don’t want to promise that it’ll be part of the 1.8 update just yet.

Am I correct in understanding that this means that, in the future, it is in theory possible that the IGs will change their bonuses that they give? Like the Devout becoming crusaders and getting military bonuses?

Or does this mean something else?
 
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Really happy to read this! I welcome any change to make the political system less rigid than what IGs currently allow. Expanding on the existing political movement mechanic is a great way of doing this.

I hope it's not too late to ask a few questions:

1. You talk about making the selection of the next leader ideology more responsive to current circumstances and more transparent to the player. That's a really great change. However, I am wondering if you are also considering changes to what causes a new leader to be selected. I understand that you do not want to give players immediate control over this (personally I think even the "promote agitator" action is too powerful). But currently it seems to be entirely random when an IG leader would be replaced. It even seems to be mostly an age thing? Both for realism and gameplay it would be nice if there was more mechanical interaction (and transparency). Leaders do not just get replaced because of their age, but more commonly due to political causes. Examples of this are: IG received significantly fewer votes than last election, or the current leader ideology disagrees with a powerful movement without being supported by an equally powerful movement. It would be nice if the game could at least show the difference of "this leader is not going to be replaced any time soon" and "this leader is in danger of being replaced" to the player - both for leaders you want to use and leaders you want to get rid of.

2. We currently have the Suppress/Bolster interactions targeting Interest Groups. Are you considering moving or extending a similar mechanic to political movements? I think it makes more sense for this activity to target specific movements rather than whole interest groups (of course there would be an indirect effect on IGs as well). Either way, adding this ability would provide more interactivity with political movements.

3. In the discussion of political movement support you give special weight to the opinions of military personnel. That's a great change. Are there further changes planned for how this affects civil wars resulting from political movements? Currently it feels strange that a country's military gets simply split. Is there a chance to expand this mechanic so that only movements supported by the military can count on the country's actual military units to join its civil war side?

4. Minor point but are you considering to change/add laws that modify how political movements interact with politics? The current laws mostly limit radicalism growth and revolution progress speed, and assume that radicalism is mostly a bad thing. There are e.g. no modifiers on how much political movements impact IG politics or how much they impact the legislative process. For example, Anarchy could be changed to rely more on political movements than other forms of government. It might also make sense to have a Direct Democracy law to capture the Swiss model, i.e. a broadly liberal government that still extends more power to plebiscites - a possible systemic hook for political movements.
 
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You're comparing a time with vastly more organized, aggressive, and successful mass movements with today
It's really not clear to me that "mass movements" were vastly more organized than they are today, if by "mass movements" you mean street protests. I have been to protests that were extremely organized, by trade unions and campaigning organizations, with stewards, and pre-planned video packages for the stage, and journalists invited, etc. That's surely easier in the age of the smartphone than in an era when even printing off a flyer required access to a printing press that cost more than the salary of a clerk.

As for more successful, well, I can point to plenty of examples where street protests failed: Peterloo, the Chartists, numerous protests in 1848. But I would also agree that there are cases where street protests were part of a mass movement that led to real change, such the July and 1848 Revolutions in Paris. And I agree that those protests showed a high level of aggression; they were extremely violent. (That does still happen today, as the Arab Spring showed, but in this thread I should probably stick to Victorian examples.) But in neither of those French cases did the government change, or cease to change, a law. What the riots did was test the police and army's willingness to defend the political leadership. Both the King of France and the King of the French fled when it became clear that their orders were no longer being obeyed. In game terms, that depended not upon the level of Radicalism of the rioters, but the Legitimacy of their government, and whether the Military IG was inside or outside the governing coalition.
and ignoring that this whole system only leads to change as radicalism gets high

As long as radicalism is low the movements will mostly be preservationist or to benefit powerful IGs like Landowners and the Church. If they're loyal and happy you won't necessarily need to make regressive change to please them leading to high levels of conservatism (in the sense of low degree of energy toward changing laws). But when radicalism is high, assuming you're mostly angering the rural and urban poor, movements will push your country to change. The vast majority of law changes you make, if the system is set up properly, will abide by the desires of major IGs like now. But when your country does slide off a cliff it won't be over a single law change for poor laws or something
If I understand you rightly, you are talking about how new Movements are generated. If the level of Radicalism (in the country? the pop?) is low, then you get "preservationist" Movements that support current Laws and powerful IGs. If the level of Radicalism is high, then you get Movements demanding change.

But the wiki says that the current system largely decides whether you get "movements to preserve" or "movements to enact" based on pre-set defines. The game is exactly 1000 times more likely to check whether to create a "movement to preserve", according to the wiki footnotes. Other modifiers are then applied, but Radicalism doesn't seem to directly factor into it. Indeed, Radicalism is a property of Movements, so it cannot be checked until a Movement is created, if I have understood that article correctly.

My reading is consistent with this Dev Diary, which says that Radicalism will continue to be a property of Movements: "As before, Movements have Support and Radicalism.". So I don't understand where you're getting this country-wide sense of Radicalism from. I know that the topbar shows the total number of Radicals in your country, but I think don't think that number can be directly used as a measure of Radicalism. It might be used as a (proxy?) measure of the total Support for Movements, but Support and Radicalism seem to be different things. Support is about the breadth of support for changing (or keeping) a law, while Radicalism is very roughly about the depth of support of changing/keeping a law. You can have a lot of people who don't care much, or a few people who are ready to fight. But it's a complex game so it's very possible that I've missed something.
 
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Lots of fascinating stuff here, thank you. As a general note, I find the idea of a "compromise candidate" very interesting. I'd love if you could expand that notion somewhat by creating more hybrid Character Ideologies like Enlightened Royalist; for instance, if the Intelligentsia or PB are split between Land Reformers and Republicans, you have a much higher chance of rolling a Welfarist Republican, a variant of the Republican who also supports Homesteading and Commercial Agriculture while hating Serfdom and disliking Tenant Farmers. I know some historical character templates can show up with different ideologies, like how Blanqui can show up as either a Radical or a Vanguardist; in my example, you could get Sun Yat-Sen as either baseline or Welfarist Republican depending on conditions in China.

For example, a cultural minority movement of South Italians in North Italy would oppose the enactment of Ethnostate since it would strip them of their rights, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re willing to extend those rights to other, less accepted cultures in the country.
Hmm. I hope this is just a way to avoid spoiling the dev diary regarding the new cultural acceptance system, and you aren't actually keeping Ethnostate as-is. We don't call the Third Reich ethnonationalist because of how it treated Alemannic Germans. If the Citizenship laws will remain roughly the same, though, I'd ask that you add a couple more Citizenship-focused Character Ideologies like Segregationist, for Racial Segregation, and Cosmopolitan/Universalist for Multiculturalism and Open Borders. In the vein of the hybrids I mentioned above, you might be able to roll a Liberal Universalist, blending Market Liberal and Cosmopolitan (e.g. Mises) or a Republican Nationalist, who supports National Supremacy in addition to republican instititions (e.g. Ataturk).

Military Support is a little more complex, and is currently calculated by the fraction of Soldier and Officer Political Strength that are part of the movement, representing the fact that officers tend to have a greater sway on military side-taking than mere enlisted men.
Does the weight given to each side vary in-game? Feels to me as though Officers should be much more empowered under Professional Army, for instance, and relatively less so under Mass Conscription. Perhaps it could tie in to the average morale in a country's armed forces, where the higher your morale, the more weight Officers get over Servicemen, or alternatively with the average support for any ongoing wars. Or perhaps you could just model it using the political strength buffs granted by the laws themselves.

We are also considering allowing Movements to have more permanent effects on the ideologies of Interest Groups, but this is tricky to pull off in a way that doesn’t end up with an IG changing its core identity every 10 years or so, so I don’t want to promise that it’ll be part of the 1.8 update just yet.
I presume you have given this much thought already, but in my opinion permanent effects ought to require that a Movement be hegemonic within an IG, at least concerning a particular issue. That is to say, it doesn't just require having an IG leader from the Movement, but also that there not be a significant opposing tendency within that IG, perhaps holding both an absolute majority of Support and at least twice that of any opponent. For the Evangelicals in your screenshot, an Abolitionist United Assembly leader wouldn't be able to make abolitionism a core Ideology of the IG until the Property Rights Preservation Movement had been marginalised.

You could also make it conditional on the Movement's success: an IG which makes it into government and subsequently achieves its Movement's demands would get an event where you can choose between an extra burst of Loyalists or IG approval, or cementing the Movement's tenets as a core IG Ideology. The latter has a few harsh downsides: if any opposition exists within the IG, the IG would get a Pop Attraction debuff proportionate to how much sway the opposition Movement had within it, and whether or not there's any opposition, the leader will retire/become an agitator/become a Moderate to represent their satisfaction with the new status quo. Perhaps, too, it'd make that IG less likely to spawn/adhere to new Movements while it's in power, leading to long-term stagnation.

On the other hand, if an IG isn't in government, it could have an easier time reorienting itself around a new Movement in proportion to how small it is, at the cost of further locking out any chance at compromise. So, for the Trade Unions, a communist Movement could embed itself much more quickly if the group was a small minority, particularly if the IG was angry and the Movement had high Radicalism. In this case, rather than needing the IG leader to align with the Movement, it'd be a matter of that Movement being hegemonic regardless of IG leader, in which case they could either force out the current leader or perhaps force the IG to adopt their Ideology if the existing leader didn't oppose their Movement's core principles. However, that would have a similar Pop Attraction debuff of its own.

Essentially, I'd like to see a couple of things modelled. First, I'd like to see a system wherein IGs can gain power on the back of movements, but the longer they spend in power, the more complacent they become, while on the other end of the scale, the most volatile IGs are those which have no power and might be pushed towards any new movement which offers the chance at winning it back. Second, rather than leaders, I'd prefer the emphasis to be on changing an IG's core Ideologies, with leaders taking a relatively peripheral role. My hope would be that they can't totally override an IG's priorities: if they Like something the IG Dislikes, it averages out to neutrality, meaning you'll still face a much more uphill battle unless you can count on a lot of extra support from agitators, other IGs or perhaps even your overlord.

This update looks incredibly promising, and my biggest hope would be to really follow through on Victoria 3's goal of a materialist politics system. That goal has always been hamstrung by the dependence on leaders. Making their appointment contingent on Movements is a great step forward, since it means the appointment of a new leader represents a given Movement winning the power struggle. But it also makes them feel even more like the perfect democratic centralist party: a diverse range of opinion, but when the leadership makes a decision, everyone follows through with it. It seems like you've made it harder for the Landowners to instantly convert to Market Liberalism - but if the leader dies, and thanks to the liberal Movement there's a 15% chance of getting an ML leader, then there's a 15% chance of instantly converting them, no?



Christ. Every time I think I'm about to write out a brief response, I end up producing a thousand-word essay. I hope it doesn't come off as snide; please take it as a sincere compliment that you muster such enthusiasm from me, because that's what it is. As ever, I am wildly excited for the next dev diary. Keep it up!
 
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It's really not clear to me that "mass movements" were vastly more organized than they are today, if by "mass movements" you mean street protests. I have been to protests that were extremely organized, by trade unions and campaigning organizations, with stewards, and pre-planned video packages for the stage, and journalists invited, etc. That's surely easier in the age of the smartphone than in an era when even printing off a flyer required access to a printing press that cost more than the salary of a clerk.

As for more successful, well, I can point to plenty of examples where street protests failed: Peterloo, the Chartists, numerous protests in 1848. But I would also agree that there are cases where street protests were part of a mass movement that led to real change, such the July and 1848 Revolutions in Paris. And I agree that those protests showed a high level of aggression; they were extremely violent. (That does still happen today, as the Arab Spring showed, but in this thread I should probably stick to Victorian examples.) But in neither of those French cases did the government change, or cease to change, a law. What the riots did was test the police and army's willingness to defend the political leadership. Both the King of France and the King of the French fled when it became clear that their orders were no longer being obeyed. In game terms, that depended not upon the level of Radicalism of the rioters, but the Legitimacy of their government, and whether the Military IG was inside or outside the governing coalition.

If I understand you rightly, you are talking about how new Movements are generated. If the level of Radicalism (in the country? the pop?) is low, then you get "preservationist" Movements that support current Laws and powerful IGs. If the level of Radicalism is high, then you get Movements demanding change.

But the wiki says that the current system largely decides whether you get "movements to preserve" or "movements to enact" based on pre-set defines. The game is exactly 1000 times more likely to check whether to create a "movement to preserve", according to the wiki footnotes. Other modifiers are then applied, but Radicalism doesn't seem to directly factor into it. Indeed, Radicalism is a property of Movements, so it cannot be checked until a Movement is created, if I have understood that article correctly.

My reading is consistent with this Dev Diary, which says that Radicalism will continue to be a property of Movements: "As before, Movements have Support and Radicalism.". So I don't understand where you're getting this country-wide sense of Radicalism from. I know that the topbar shows the total number of Radicals in your country, but I think don't think that number can be directly used as a measure of Radicalism. It might be used as a (proxy?) measure of the total Support for Movements, but Support and Radicalism seem to be different things. Support is about the breadth of support for changing (or keeping) a law, while Radicalism is very roughly about the depth of support of changing/keeping a law. You can have a lot of people who don't care much, or a few people who are ready to fight. But it's a complex game so it's very possible that I've missed something.

I fully agree. Today's movements are no less successful nor less well-organized. As we were going through the French example, the yellow vest a few years ago in France. The government put the anti-criminality brigades to repress the protesters because the CRS (another branch of the police whose job is to handle protests) was too sympathetic to the protesters. There are several in-depth journalist investigations on that matter (media part, among others). Indeed, governments fear protests and radical movements. They can only hold as long as the police/military does not start siding with the protesters. Historically, a lot of movement ended up with a coup d'etat when the military sided with the protesters.
 
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I fully agree. Today's movements are no less successful nor less well-organized. As we were going through the French example, the yellow vest a few years ago in France. The government put the anti-criminality brigades to repress the protesters because the CRS (another branch of the police whose job is to handle protests) was too sympathetic to the protesters. There are several in-depth journalist investigations on that matter (media part, among others). Indeed, governments fear protests and radical movements. They can only hold as long as the police/military does not start siding with the protesters. Historically, a lot of movement ended up with a coup d'etat when the military sided with the protesters.
Also, street protests can have the effect of pressuring sympathetic but heretofore silent "fence sitters" into action. A classic example of this would be the African-American Civil Rights movement in the southern United States in the 1950s and 60s. One of its major effects was to finally force liberal whites to start openly calling for an end to racial segregation laws, where before many of them opposed such laws but were content to treat it as a "local issue" that was none of their concern.
 
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I fully agree. Today's movements are no less successful nor less well-organized. As we were going through the French example, the yellow vest a few years ago in France. The government put the anti-criminality brigades to repress the protesters because the CRS (another branch of the police whose job is to handle protests) was too sympathetic to the protesters. There are several in-depth journalist investigations on that matter (media part, among others). Indeed, governments fear protests and radical movements. They can only hold as long as the police/military does not start siding with the protesters. Historically, a lot of movement ended up with a coup d'etat when the military sided with the protesters.
Most recently in Bangladesh
 
Will we be able to establish/sponsor political movements in other countries? If, for instance, I wanted to coax the Canadians to declare independence from the British, could I set up and fund such a movement while secretly promising to support it if need be?
 
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It's really not clear to me that "mass movements" were vastly more organized than they are today, if by "mass movements" you mean street protests. I have been to protests that were extremely organized, by trade unions and campaigning organizations, with stewards, and pre-planned video packages for the stage, and journalists invited, etc. That's surely easier in the age of the smartphone than in an era when even printing off a flyer required access to a printing press that cost more than the salary of a clerk.
I'm talking about mass movements as a whole including street protests. The protests you're talking about are occasionally large but are both rare and are rarely violent enough to get the fear-based concessions we see from autocrats during this period. And that's why movements tended to involve groups that either made their own printing presses or could require them

As for more successful, well, I can point to plenty of examples where street protests failed: Peterloo, the Chartists, numerous protests in 1848. But I would also agree that there are cases where street protests were part of a mass movement that led to real change, such the July and 1848 Revolutions in Paris. And I agree that those protests showed a high level of aggression; they were extremely violent. (That does still happen today, as the Arab Spring showed, but in this thread I should probably stick to Victorian examples.) But in neither of those French cases did the government change, or cease to change, a law. What the riots did was test the police and army's willingness to defend the political leadership. Both the King of France and the King of the French fled when it became clear that their orders were no longer being obeyed. In game terms, that depended not upon the level of Radicalism of the rioters, but the Legitimacy of their government, and whether the Military IG was inside or outside the governing coalition.
What determined that legitimacy?

If I understand you rightly, you are talking about how new Movements are generated. If the level of Radicalism (in the country? the pop?) is low, then you get "preservationist" Movements that support current Laws and powerful IGs. If the level of Radicalism is high, then you get Movements demanding change.

But the wiki says that the current system largely decides whether you get "movements to preserve" or "movements to enact" based on pre-set defines. The game is exactly 1000 times more likely to check whether to create a "movement to preserve", according to the wiki footnotes. Other modifiers are then applied, but Radicalism doesn't seem to directly factor into it. Indeed, Radicalism is a property of Movements, so it cannot be checked until a Movement is created, if I have understood that article correctly.
I'm not sure how that matters wr to the new system they're building which specifically has movements to preserve that aren't based on law changes

My reading is consistent with this Dev Diary, which says that Radicalism will continue to be a property of Movements: "As before, Movements have Support and Radicalism.". So I don't understand where you're getting this country-wide sense of Radicalism from. I know that the topbar shows the total number of Radicals in your country, but I think don't think that number can be directly used as a measure of Radicalism. It might be used as a (proxy?) measure of the total Support for Movements, but Support and Radicalism seem to be different things. Support is about the breadth of support for changing (or keeping) a law, while Radicalism is very roughly about the depth of support of changing/keeping a law. You can have a lot of people who don't care much, or a few people who are ready to fight. But it's a complex game so it's very possible that I've missed something.
Radicalism in movements tends to come from/be associated with high levels of radicalism in the country it doesn't come from thin air or the law change itself
 
out of pure curiosity....
What would you say this military rework should focus on and change?
No offense, but everyone has made it very vocal with the shortcomings of this system they have implemented. If you honestly think the wars and military do not need significant rework then I am not sure it is worth even explaining. Regardless I will if you are genuinely curious and not bad faithed. Wars do not have enough influence from players, Objectives and Generals are really not enough, what I have heard almost universally is that battles and fronts are not predictive nor fun at all along with the sheer randomization. There are a minority of diehards who still think the current system is enjoyable and would not wish to see any added micromanagement or player handled strategy, but majority agree that it needs to change on some level. I haven't even mentioned known bugs which have plagued this system from the very beginning. I know that 1.5 added a little bit and points towards a better direction, but it still needs an overhaul. Overall it should be a priority, but I doubt Paradox and V3 developers are going to hard change tack any time soon due to them still wanting this to be a glorified tycoon and politics game instead of a Grand Strategy game.
 
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Seems like at this point, interest groups are almost obsolete except as a tech debt system. Let parties have leaders and ideologies and IGs not, and cut out the middle man. In a no-party system, these new movements (and agitators) would need only a little expansion to fill the gameplay role that IGs do.
 
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Reposting a Reddit comment of mine - people told me to bring it here, I'm hope it's not too late:
Can we also have them consider insitution strength? It's weird to me how millions would be willing to fight for minimum wage but all are instantly satisfied as soon as it's 20%. There should be some that want it to 100% as well
 
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Can we have additional effects from political movents beyond radicalizing POPs?

As @Ispil has suggested here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/local-discrimination-based-on-movements.1707214/

A national supremacy movement will radicalize POPs depending on the activism stage but also lower the acceptance of all other culture/religion POPs than their own.

Other movements like the pro slavery may increase the rate of POPs enslaved or slave traded for example.

This way, the effect of political movements is not disconnected from your society and each one feels different; even if they are slight changes. No more only radicals from political movents but something else as well.
 
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