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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #128 - Political Movement Rework

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Happy Thursday and welcome back to another Victoria 3 development diary. This week I’ll be talking about the Political Movement Rework I mentioned back in Dev Diary #126 and which will be coming to you with update 1.8, slated to release later in the year. Before I start, I want to reiterate that this feature is still very much under active development, and any screenshots or numbers shown are very much not indicative of what will be in the actual release, and the UX in particular will be in a very rough state, so don’t read too much into it!

Right then. As I stated previously, the principal goal of this rework is to change Political Movements from temporary demands into long-term ideological forces that can shape the political landscape of your country. So what does that mean, in practice? Well, one of the most significant differences is that movements are no longer formed around the enactment or preservation of a single law. Instead, there is a wide variety of movement types, each with its own unique agenda and conditions for forming, but which can be broadly broken down into three categories:

Ideological Movements: These are movements that exist to push a particular ideological agenda and try to win support for that agenda among your Pops and Interest Groups. Examples include both more narrowly focused movements such as Abolitionists and Suffragettes, and broader ones such as Communists and National Liberals.

Cultural Movements: These are movements that exist to agitate for the rights and privileges of a particular culture in a country. Their specific agenda will vary based on whether the culture is a primary culture or minority culture, as well as the legal status of that culture in the country. For example, a cultural minority movement of South Italians in North Italy would oppose the enactment of Ethnostate since it would strip them of their rights, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re willing to extend those rights to other, less accepted cultures in the country.

Religious Movements: Similar to the cultural movements, but for religions instead

The Pro-Slavery Movement in the United States is largely composed of Dixie pops and has wide-reaching influence in multiple Interest Groups
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As before, Movements have Support and Radicalism. Previously, both of these numbers could be a little fuzzy in exactly what they represented, so we have changed them into straight percentages between 0 and 100%, where 50% Support now actually means that about half of your country stands behind the movement.

Support is currently calculated from two parts of roughly equal importance: Popular Support and Military Support. The former is a straightforward calculation of the number of individuals in your country that are part of the movement, so in a country of 1 million people, a movement backed by 100k individuals would have a Popular Support of 10%. Military Support is a little more complex, and is currently calculated by the fraction of Soldier and Officer Political Strength that are part of the movement, representing the fact that officers tend to have a greater sway on military side-taking than mere enlisted men. We are also looking into ways to tie generals directly into movements and have this impact their Military Support. All of this plays an important role if a movement escalates into a Civil War, but more on that later.

So, how do movements gain the support of Pops? Very much like Interest Groups, they now have an attraction weight, which depends completely on the type of nature of the movement. The Abolitionist movement, for instance, might have an outsized attraction on literate pops of certain professions, but also would tend to attract more pops from religions whose scripture and traditions take an anti-slavery stance than from ones which tacitly or overtly approve of it.

This attraction weight competes with the attraction weight of all other movements in your country, as individuals can only be part of a single movement at a time. To ensure that this doesn’t mean you end up with 20 tiny and fragmented movements, we are planning to have a system of ‘initial enthusiasm’, where new movements start with a boost to their attraction which fades over time, and are eventually supplanted entirely by the next shiny new thing. It’s worth noting that we may end up only applying this to Ideological Movements, as it doesn’t necessarily make sense that your Pops would stop caring about their right to worship freely just because the Positivist movement is taking off.

Before we move on, it’s also worth noting that just like with Interest Groups, Pop support for Movements isn’t something that instantly changes overnight: Even if a movement is created with a massive attraction weight, it will take some time for it to pick up supporters from other movements.

The pro-Turkish cultural movement in the Ottoman Empire seeks to ensure that Turks remain at the top of Ottoman society, and has a fairly strong base of support in the military.
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As mentioned above, movements will champion one or several ideologies, and have a few different ways in which they will push those ideologies. The first and most straightforward one is through direct action. Movements have a level of Radicalism, which will go up or down over time based on how much they perceive the current status quo and government’s actions to match their overarching goals. Depending on their level of Radicalism, Movements will be in one of four ‘levels’ of activity:

Passive: Movements with very low Radicalism are Passive, have no direct effects and will only indirectly influence Interest Groups (more on that below)
Agitating: The next step up from Passive, Agitating movements will influence the enactment chances of laws that they support or oppose
Protesting: Protesting movements have a greater impact on the enactment chances of their supported and opposed laws compared to Agitating movements, but also steadily turn their supporters into Radicals over time
Rioting: The highest level of Radicalism, Rioting movements will rapidly radicalize their supporters and may take their level of activity one step further by igniting a Civil War

What all this means is that Movement Radicalism is no longer purely a negative thing, at least not when a Movement’s goals align with yours - if you work too hard at keeping everyone happy, you may find it difficult to push through any radical changes that aren’t backed by your dominant Interest Groups.

The other, less direct way in which Movements affect country politics is the influence they hold over Interest Groups. An Interest Group is considered to be influenced by a Movement if at least a certain % of the Interest Group’s total political strength are members of that Movement, and an Interest Group can be influenced by multiple movements. The most significant effect of this is how it impacts IG Leader Ideologies.

Previously, when an Interest Group got a new leader, that leader would pick their ideology from a weighted list of all the ideologies in the game (minus ones that were scripted to be unavailable or have a weight of zero for that leader), but this has now been reduced to a much shorter list: Leader ideologies can now only be picked from either a set of basic ideologies inherent to the Interest Group itself, or from one of the movements that is influencing the Interest Group, with Movement ideologies tending to have stronger weights than the basic ones. This also means that the ideology selection can now actually be predicted and displayed, so that you can make an educated guess about the way the political winds are blowing in your IGs.

This effectively means that the influencing movements serve as ‘factions’ inside the Interest Group, competing to install a leader and take control of the IG for as long as that leader remains in power. We are also considering allowing Movements to have more permanent effects on the ideologies of Interest Groups, but this is tricky to pull off in a way that doesn’t end up with an IG changing its core identity every 10 years or so, so I don’t want to promise that it’ll be part of the 1.8 update just yet.

Torn between the Pro and Anti-Slavery movements, the next leader of Evangelicals may come down on either side of the issue - or be a compromise candidate who sidesteps it altogether.
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The final changes I want to go over in this DD is Agitators, which of course have had to go through some changes to fit into this new system. For the most part, Agitators work exactly as before: They appear and start or join movements, can be exiled and invited, and so on. A relatively minor change is that instead of directly adding Support to a movement, they now increase its Pop Attraction by an amount partially scaling to their Popularity, so having Friedrich Engels penning columns singing the praise of your Socialist movement will attract more Socialists over time.

The more significant change is that we have flipped the script on what an Agitator’s Interest Group membership means for their political leanings. Previously, an Agitator would (much like an IG leader) look to their ideology first and interest group ideologies second when determining which laws they support, meaning that you would sometimes get some pretty strange bedfellows and a bunch of Rural Folk Agitators of varying ideologies trying to implement National Militia all over the place for rather unclear reasons. Instead of anchoring Agitators fully to the ideologies of their IG, we have decided that their own ideology, traits and other such circumstances should be what determines which Movement they want to support.

In other words, Agitators are now much more fixated on specific ideas, and if there isn’t sufficient support for those ideas in your country to get a Movement they would actually care to support going, they may not even be available to invite. On the other hand, we are looking into loosening the rules somewhat around which Agitators you can invite based on discrimination status, but we haven’t fully worked out the details there, so more on that another time.

It would of course not be possible to make all these changes without also making major changes to Civil Wars (particularly Secessions and how they tie into cultural/religious movements), but we’ll cover all of that separately in a later dev diary, along with more detailed information on how Movement Radicalism works.

For now I’ll wish you adieu and encourage you to check in again next week, when Lino will tell you all about discrimination and the ways it’s changing in 1.8. See you then!
 

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My current thinking is that the historical leader would need to match the possible ideologies and when generated from templates we should show this in the next leader prediction as with generals above. Trickier with events that brute force in characters though, will have to do on a case by case basis there.
Events that allow a choice of promoting a new leader or not seem fine to leave as is. Only those which don't allow a choice need reworking in my mind.
 
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My current thinking is that the historical leader would need to match the possible ideologies and when generated from templates we should show this in the next leader prediction as with generals above. Trickier with events that brute force in characters though, will have to do on a case by case basis there.
One approach would be to turn historical IG leaders into agitators if their ideology is too fringe for their IG.
 
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This new approach to movements looks a great improvements over the current one, where IG change party or just get behind a leader almost randomly sometimes.
 
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Could this system be used for a way to draft laws wholesale to pass many laws at once? In many countries in this era, reforms didn't come one by one changing of laws but instead drafting a new constitution, this could particularly be important when the form of government changes, especially from monarchy to republic but also from an autocratic monarchy to constitutional monarchy.

I am thinking an autocratic monarchy could be forced to change their laws wholesale to be constitutional (mostly) by pressure of a relevant enough movement and essentially conceding to all their demands. Similarly revolts & revolutions could change more than just one law.
 
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Also, I know that it's probably a bit out of scope, but... well, the discrimination laws could really use a rework. Currently, you have varying degrees of discrimination, which are based around your primary culture. Shouldn't acceptance/discrimination laws be based more around what actual cultures you have present in your nation, and how big those are, rather than the laws be dealing with imaginary cultures that you might or might not have?

Regarding Discrimination - two Dev Diaries ago they mentioned they are reworking how it works and that there will be varying levels of discrimination.
 
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If i read this correctly, does this mean that maximizing loyalists gain will lead to a stagnation in what laws you can pass? as it sounds like you needs radicals to get laws moving, even if they are what your ruling IG's want. if so, will there be levers we can pull to generate radicals even when standard of living is soaring so that we dont fall behind on political changes?

Secondly, with the new way leaders choose their primary interest, how does that work with kingdoms that auto generate an heir?
 
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If i read this correctly, does this mean that maximizing loyalists gain will lead to a stagnation in what laws you can pass? as it sounds like you needs radicals to get laws moving, even if they are what your ruling IG's want. if so, will there be levers we can pull to generate radicals even when standard of living is soaring so that we dont fall behind on political changes?

Secondly, with the new way leaders choose their primary interest, how does that work with kingdoms that auto generate an heir?
Passing laws simply via IG clout will still work, this system replaces the existing "movement for law" and "movement to preserve law" features, not the way that governments pass laws.
 
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Yes, but in Victoria 3 we were missing the direct action of POPs as everything was done through IGs and every POP radicalized was supporting that IGs demand.

With this change we have a more refined, nuanced system like you say because the movements have a name (good luck to the devs doing the huge historical research for all the nations to provide for accurate names) but the player now can identify the reason why POPs are getting radicalism beside SOL decreases.

Also, by having agitating and protesting movements you get help to enact laws, like Victoria II. The player can see the link directly between POPs and the law, while before the player could only see the IG or the IG leader or Agitator.

I know that you could do the maths and see which pops were supporting which IG and their political power.... but this is much better
Agreed. It's much clearer what is happening and why, which reduces the (incorrect) impression that the player has no real agency and everything is decided by random chance.
Also, this feels like a much cleaner way of modelling nationalist/secessionist/civil rights movements. Most of the proposals I've seen for that up to this point were for creating separate IGs for specific minority groups. However, I feel like that could have just resulted in a cluttered mess of dozens of IGs, especially for large empires with a lot of cultural or religious diversity. So this feels like a more more elegant way of handling the situation.
 
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Regarding Discrimination - two Dev Diaries ago they mentioned they are reworking how it works and that there will be varying levels of discrimination.
I appreciate you linking/mentioning it. My issue is a bit different, though.

They said they want to tackle the binary state of discrimination, which is a good thing. Just because the French government says that Poles are not discriminated, doesn't mean that the French people won't discriminate against them. That is realistic, if you're in Europe for example, and have neighbouring cultures in your nation.

It's just that the base problem, which I'm all about, isn't solved here. Which is discrimination revolving around the arbitrarily set primary culture of a nation. Regardless of discrimination being binary or not, the new system will still use your primary culture as a baseline, from where it determines how much any closely related cultures will be discriminated. It will still look at your primary culture, look at its heritage, and look towards other cultures with the same heritage, while ignoring the demographics of your nation.

What I want is something that is based around the cultures living in your nation, and them trying to live together. You could compare it to CK3's cultural acceptance mechanic, which is a value that reflects how well people in your realm are living together, and how much they are willing to put up with each other. You don't get acceptance with people not living in your realm, so Hispania holding land in North Africa will over time have more cultural acceptance with Maghrebi cultures, than say with Normans or Italians.

In CK3 they can even form new hybrid cultures, but that's not what I want for Vic3. All I want is merely cultures accepting each other based on the demographic situation of your nation. The next accepted culture for the Dutch East Indies shouldn't revolve around your Dutch primary culture trying to discriminate less against Germans and English, but trying to live together with Sumatran/Javan Sunni Muslims. That is their main demographic issue to solve, not that they don't accept other European Heritage cultures.
 
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I beg you don't forget to swap racial and cultural segregation. Like %99 of times(might be even %100) you accept every "similar culture" when you enact racial segregation so cultural is just flat out worse law.
 
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How will events, government decisions and journal entries influence the movement creation? Ideally events such as famines, losing wars or revolutionary waves such as the Springtime of Peoples should prop up republican sentiment. Will we see such effects reflected within the movements?
 
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If i read this correctly, does this mean that maximizing loyalists gain will lead to a stagnation in what laws you can pass? as it sounds like you needs radicals to get laws moving, even if they are what your ruling IG's want. if so, will there be levers we can pull to generate radicals even when standard of living is soaring so that we dont fall behind on political changes?

Secondly, with the new way leaders choose their primary interest, how does that work with kingdoms that auto generate an heir?
I don't think the link between population and movement radicalism in the new system is clear yet. Although it has been said that a protesting or rioting movement creates radicals, it hasn't been said that you need radicals to create a radical movement. Although it's pretty logical to assume, and if that's the case, than you're right, maximizing loyalists can lead to being unable to pass effective laws.
I can't say I disagree with the idea completely, it does make sense that a complacent population just will not push even for needed reforms hard enough.
 
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Many thanks to Wiz and the Devs. This diary is extremely exciting and very well received.

I’d just have a few questions (as you’ve mentioned a lot is subject to rework so I don’t expect you to have all the answers)

1. Obligatory how moddable will the system be?

2. Have you considered any interaction between movements and parties? Any ideas on what you’d envision for this?

3. Ditto for incorporating movements into elections.

4. In regards to making pops only able to support 1 moment at a time, thus making movements mutually exclusive I would like to ask how and why you decided on this? Were there any problems with allowing an idividual to support more than one movement?

For example if 80% of a pop supports abolitionism are there any mechanical issues or considerations against them also having maybe 40% communist supporters also? And maybe also 40% liberal. I think this would help prevent the case of 20 fragmented movements and personally feel the solution might fit better than pops picking what’s the newest movement to throw all their support at.

Thank you so much again all your hard work. (Happy for you to ignore Qs 1-3 if I’m asking too many questions)
 
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I would like to see ideologies have a type, such as Core, Traditional, and Cultural. For instance, Moralist and Pious would be Core Ideologies of Evangelicals, while Patriarchal is a Traditional Ideologies. If you have multiple leaders in a row with the same differing ideology, it can replace the current Traditional Ideology, but a Core Ideology could never be replaced. Thus, over time, an Interest Group can change it's traditions while maintaining its Core.

Country Unique ideologies (such as Bakufu or Caudillismo) I'd like to see linked to certain cultures. If the majority culture of an IG changes, then the Cultural ideology could change to either the generic version or that culture's unique ideology. This would also open up a lot more cultures having unique Cultural ideologies linked to them.
As someone who has suggested this exact thing, I like the general idea of your post, but there are some specifics I have to contest.

I wouldn't be so hasty in considering certain aspects "Core", as many ideologies are replaced or changed already. The elephant in the room is Pious. It's already replaced by Corporatist once you research it.
Ideally, it would be that IG ideologies will bend, but not break. You won't ever get the Devout to support Total Separation over State Religion, but you might get them to support Public Health Insurance over Charity Hospitals.

The general idea is that we can create a system that replicates what some nations already get through guided Journal events.
Brazil, for example, gets no less than three unique events that change Ideology: Giving RF Pro-Slavery, making the PB Modernizer, and making the Landowners Oligarchic.
 
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This effectively means that the influencing movements serve as ‘factions’ inside the Interest Group, competing to install a leader and take control of the IG for as long as that leader remains in power. We are also considering allowing Movements to have more permanent effects on the ideologies of Interest Groups, but this is tricky to pull off in a way that doesn’t end up with an IG changing its core identity every 10 years or so, so I don’t want to promise that it’ll be part of the 1.8 update just yet.

Perhaps similar to how even on the Government tab listing which Interest Groups are in government or in opposition shows that Agitators belonging to an interest group as listed underneath that interest group, Movements can also be shown similarly as subfactions of that Interest Group. Honestly Lobbies could be shown in this way too even if they don't affect laws.

As for more permanent changes to interest groups, maybe there could be permanent interest group ideology traits they could gain that are more vague (similar to the Trade Unions getting the Socialist ideology versus permanently gaining Communist/Vanguardist/Anarchist) that help point the interest group in a new general political direction. Also, since there are base ideology traits for each Interest Group that have a chance of being rolled for the next leader separate from ones added to the list by a Movement, past Movements could add further options to the base ideology options to be rolled.
 
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Ideological Movements: These are movements that exist to push a particular ideological agenda and try to win support for that agenda among your Pops and Interest Groups. Examples include both more narrowly focused movements such as Abolitionists and Suffragettes, and broader ones such as Communists and National Liberals.

It was mentioned here as well as in Dev Diary 126 that Abolitionists would be an example of a Movement and it may be about more than merely passing Slavery Banned.

At the bare minimum, I think two other laws they should have opinions on are Citizenship and Land Reform, in the USA this would mean that you could have abolitionists continue after succeeding with passing Slavery Banned and winning the Civil War with pressure to pass civil rights for Afro-American pops as well as to pass some kind of "40 Acres and a Mule" style law (we are in desperate need to create a new law option in the game to do for plantation ownership the same as Homesteading does for all other non-plantation agricultural buildings, after all it is a bit silly to say that small family farms physically can't grow cash crops). This prospect of land reform played a part historically in the multiracial political coalitions in the South during Reconstruction, aligning poor whites with freed blacks against the planter elite, making the Landowner vs Rural Folk divide an important part of Reconstruction that is sorely lacking in the game right now.

I have also long been an advocate of adding a new ideology for Radical Republicans in the USA. Similar to how Andrew Jackson used to be a Radical before Jacksonian Democrat was added, it is not very accurate to have Ulysses S Grant being merely a Radical (among other issues with his portrayal), and multiple historical Abolitionist Agitators like Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and John Brown are insufficient with being satisfied after merely passing Slavery Banned.

I hope whatever way you are planning to adjust Abolitionist Movements will incorporate such things as these.
 
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