• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #17 - Migration

Thumbnail.jpg

Hello and welcome to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Today’s topic is Migration (meaning the movement of Pops between states), what role it plays in Victoria 3, and how it functions mechanically. There are two types of Migration in Victoria 3: Intra-Market Migration and Mass Migration, and we’ll be explaining both of these starting with Intra-Market Migration.

Intra-Market Migration is the movement of Pops between two States that are part of the same Market. Barring certain exceptions (such as slaves not being able to migrate, as covered in the previous dev diary), Pops are generally always able to move between States in the Market, though the number of individuals that are able to change their homes on a weekly basis varies based on factors such as the local Infrastructure and Market Access in the two States.

Which Pops migrate from and to what States depends on the Migration Attraction of each State. Migration Attraction is a value that is based on the average Standard of Living in the state, and modified by various factors such as over/underpopulation, unemployment/available jobs and so on. It is possible for a country to directly encourage Migration to a specific state through the ‘Greener Grass Campaign’ Decree, at the cost of some Authority. In general, Pops will move from States with a low standard of living and a lack of employment opportunities to states with a high standard of living and jobs to offer. States with a low population compared to the amount of available land are especially attractive to economic immigrants.

Kansas, already an attractive state for American settlers due to its sparse population, has been further prioritized for migration through the use of a Greener Grass Campaign decree
image1.png

Discrimination, too, plays a role in migration. Pops that are being discriminated against in a particular State, and have the opportunity to migrate to another State in that market where they would not be discriminated against (perhaps because of multiple countries sharing the same Market, and one of those countries having more liberal citizenship or religious laws) will take that opportunity in greater numbers, provided of course that there is an underlying economic reason for them to want to move there in the first place. After all, while enjoying voting rights is certainly nice, putting food on the table is higher on the agenda for most Pops.

Discrimination can also have the opposite effect: Pops that are already enjoying full citizen rights are generally going to need to be in pretty dire economic straits to consider moving somewhere where those rights are going to be taken away, and in the case of a Pop that is going to be discriminated against no matter where they go in the Market, they tend to stick to their cultural Homelands.

French colonial settlement policies means that their colony of Algiers receives a steady trickle of immigrants from mainland France every week
image2.png

So, what then of Mass Migration? Mass Migration is a mechanic introduced to try and model the migration of large amounts of people to places such as the US, Brazil and Australia in the 19th century. Mass Migration can happen when a particular culture experiences Turmoil, which is a product of having a large number of radicalized pops. A culture that has enough Turmoil to meet the threshold has a chance to create a Migration Target somewhere in the world, which is a flag set on a particular State that attracts huge numbers of migrants from that culture over the course of a limited timespan to that State and any States neighboring it.
Migration Targets are more likely to be created if the Pops in the culture have a low Standard of Living and high Literacy, and particularly likely to be created if there is widespread starvation among the Pops of that culture.

The selection of States for Migration Targets is based on a number of factors, including the state’s Migration Attraction, whether or not the culture is legally discriminated against in the country, and if there is a logical ‘path’ that Pops of the migrating culture would be able to follow from their Homelands to the target (such as trade routes). There is no inherent advantage in certain country ‘tags’ for who gets migrants - the US tends to get migrations because of availability of jobs and land combined with liberal citizenship laws, not because they have a built-in migration attraction bonus.

Fed up with economic hardship and political oppression in their homelands, a large group of Polish people have decided to try their luck at a new life in France
image3.png

There is one more aspect of migration that we’re only going to briefly touch on: Migration Policy. This is a group of Laws which lets you set the stance of your country on migration. For example, whether you want to promote the movement of people from your core lands to your colonies, attract skilled workers from other countries for your manufacturing economy, or even just minimize all migration (external and internal) as a way of maintaining your iron grip over the population. The reason we won’t be going into this today is because it’s currently in the process of being redesigned to this end (from a previous, much simpler set of laws). We’ll try to return to it at a later time!

With that said, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, and in fact, the end of the current string of politics dev diaries, as next we’ll be changing our focus from inwards to outwards and talking about Diplomacy, on the topic of Prestige and Rank!
 
  • 241Like
  • 93Love
  • 13
  • 7
Reactions:
Can't wait for release....

As always - questions:

1. What will happen with property / building ownership when POPs migrate? Can an aristocrat move to capital but keep ownership of land in the province and keep getting income from it? Likewise - what happens with migration between dependencies and metropolises and with international migration?

2. Can discrimination laws be State-specific within one country or between country and dependencies? For examples if I am emulating certain colonial policies and set up one minority tribe as privileged in one of the colonies, but don't want them to move to my capital?

3. How will profession affect migration - i.e. a POP has a possibility to move to another state with better SOL, but the only employment available there is in a different profession and maybe even in a different social strata. Will the POP do it? (i.e suppose Italy conquers Libya, joins it to Italian market and does not discriminate against POPs there. It may well be that Libyan engineer had a lower SOL than a labourer in Northern Italy. Will Libyan engineer move to Milan to get higher income if it means changing to a less prestigious profession?

4. Will religion and laws on religion affect migration?

Tons of questions on migration laws and policies, hope we will see a DD on them soon.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Is migration visible on the map? Similar to how Imperator had arrows for migrating pops?

Is there a breakdown view for the immigrants? This tooltip doesn't show the numbers for each state.
1633021357408.png

Imo, it'd be better to show it as a table. And to prevent the tooltip from bloating, you could show the numbers for top 10 or 5 states and group the rest, like:
122 Corsica
100 Piedmont
90 Provence
...
70 Auvergne, Aquitane, Orleans and Ile de France
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
A couple of general answers:

Anything pertaining to encouraging or discouraging certain kinds of migration will be dealt with via the as-yet-unfinished Migration Policy Laws.

When I mentioned a cultural minority might "demand self-governance" under certain conditions I'm referring to the Secession mechanics, which we will talk about in the future.

There is no direct interaction with Pops in Victoria 3, all interaction are through other mediums like Buildings, Interest Groups, Decrees, Institutions etcetera. Similarly there are no direct interactions with cultures or religions, for example you're not able to ban or encourage migration of Pops of a specific culture. All such interaction is handled through the Citizenship and Church & State Laws, which determine if a Pop is Discriminated due to culture and/or religion. It's the distinction between non-Discriminated and Discriminated Pops that determine how specific policies work, rather than selecting a specific policy for a specific kind of person. Not denying that happened on occasion, but it's certainly less common and not the level of granularity we want the game to operate on.

We've considered and experimented with adjacency-based migration in the past, but ended up deciding not to have 3 distinct systems for migration in the game. Economic migration (poor Pops moving to where the jobs are) is handled via market migration. Turmoil-based migration (destitute or oppressed Pops moving abroad) is handled via mass migration. While cross-border migration as well as a steady trickle of global migrants are certainly not ahistorical, it is irrelevant for a player when the effect is very low and difficult to explain or do something about when it's already very high. Economic migration is usually something a player is happy for and can control to some degree with Decrees, while Mass Migration is easier to signal and explain to the player and can be controlled with Laws. The effects of other forms of migration are also less relevant to model and would result in a lot of Pop fracturing (and performance problems) for no major discernible benefit.
 
  • 59
  • 23Like
  • 6
  • 4
Reactions:
Can an aristocrat move to capital but keep ownership of land in the province and keep getting income from it
While, to my understanding, this is impossible, I'm very curious to hear how absentee landlordism and other similar things will be represented.
 
There should either be multiple migration targets at a time or a quick rotation of MTs of one culture, because it didn't happen that people of one culture emigrated to a single place over more than a few months.
There can be several simultaneous Migration Targets for a given culture, depending on how high that culture's Turmoil is.
 
  • 38
  • 19Like
  • 2Love
  • 2
Reactions:
Are we only gonna get the starving ones? In the 19th century, lots of well to do people have emigrated like British engineers and German activists, is there going to be a mechanism that represents these minor flows of elite migrants?
They will migrate if they see a benefit in doing so, either economic or political. So it depends on how relatively attractive the target country is to them.
 
  • 24
  • 8Like
  • 5
  • 1Love
Reactions:
  • 1
Reactions:
In the Qing dynasty, there was a policy to prevent the Han Chinese from immigrating to Manchuria, the origin of the Manchu people. And immigrants to areas other than Eighteen Provinces, such as Mongolia and Sinkiang, were also subject to fairly strict restrictions.

If Korea is in the same market as the Qing dynasty as a tribute country, I think immigration between the two countries would also be impossible.

Will these things could be reflected in the game? (like by a method that does not allow Pops of a particular culture to immigrate to a particular state of the country)

P.S. I wrote it with reference to Google Translate, so I apologize in advance for any strange grammar or rude expressions.
 
  • 7
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Somehow I don't think Europe needs the help.
It isn't a matter of need. Its a matter of brain draining the eastern hemisphere and assimilating them into the Borg Collective United States before re-invading.
 
  • 2Love
  • 1
Reactions:
So I take it there are definitely no buffs for specific regions. So say I was playing in India or Siam or something, would it be possible for me if I do all the right things to be able to attract immigrants from Europe. Will European countries as AI care that I am stealing their population especially if I start suppressing them? For instance would France begin to dislike me if I start suppressing French people in my country?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Educational migration? There are a lot of places that had a lot of elites with money but not enough universities for them to get their qualifications. They would migrate for a time to other countries and return with qualifications as well as some very liberal and some would say radical ideas (socialist, anarchist, liberalist etc)

will that be modelled or will it just be assumed since could make money for countries with spare spots in their universities
 
If there are enough wealthy Pops to markedly increase the average, then the immigrant will be hearing about the glorious country overseas where the streets are paved with gold, scrape together enough to embark to this promised land, but perhaps find themselves stuck due to poor social mobility once they get there. Sucks for them, but not unrealistic!
Something a bit like this did happen to the Russian Jews who came to America in the early 1900s, following the earlier wave of German Jews who’d done very well for themselves.
 
Weird question, but can rich pops visit and temporarily travel/visit/migrate to other countries? Something to represent instances of rich people traveling first class on luxury liners or visting a winter home/luxury hotel in another state?
 
There are no cats in America!/and the streets are paved with cheese...
 
  • 8Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Do remittances from migrants exist?
Interesting idea, but wouldn’t an implementation need to track all the places each pop in the game came from? What might work is a cash flow for twenty or so years after the Mass Migration ends, based on the income of migrants to the target. The event ending the migration would then have all the information it needs.
 
  • 1
Reactions: